Today's Segments:
Anything But Typical: An event celebrating neurodivergence featuring educator and organizer John David Berdahl. Both neurodivergent and neurotypical brains are welcome to participate in this inclusive event.
Dave's News Review: News Director Dave Thompson provides a comprehensive review of the latest news stories, offering insights and analysis.
Matt Olien Movie Review: Prairie Public's movie critic, Matt Olien, offers his expert review of the film The Bike Riders, discussing its themes, performances, and overall impact.
Transcript of interview with David Berdahl:
Ashley Thornberg
What are the hallmarks of a neurodivergent brain?
John David Berdahl
Oh, okay, yeah, and so that covers like neurodivergent or neuroatypical, isn't just autism. A lot of people have been thinking, because I'm autistic, you know, they think it's an autism event. It's so much more, I mean that covers, what, yeah, autism, ADHD, OCD, Tourette's, dyslexia, dyscalculia, schizophrenia is a neuroatypical condition or it's a type of neurodivergence, you know.
And then every human being, we're all under that umbrella of neurodiversity, you know. Everyone has a different type of brain, that's just brain difference, you know. It's neurodivergent, neurodivergent.
Ashley Thornberg
Right, it almost raises the question, is neurotypical a thing? That sounds like a misnomer.
John David Berdahl
Well, I suppose so, yeah, like atypical, typical, normal, whatever, it's, you know, yeah, it's, we're getting to the point now where a lot of people just, I suppose, naturally or what, instinctively or something like that, just realize, you know what, I ought not to be thinking this way. You know, their mindsets are definitely changing, because we're talking about it more, of course. I'm being more vocal, I'm being more visible, you know, or apparent or obvious, you know, and just talking about these issues or these matters or these subjects, you know, and normalizing them and humanizing them is what I talk about.
It's just, this has been going on for a long time.
Ashley Thornberg
Yeah, so walk us through this event. When you have this many things to talk about, like you said, if this is not just autism and not autism, this goes way beyond that, who is going to be sort of presenting and teaching at this event?
John David Berdahl
Sure, yeah, so I'm going to provide an art activity called Rainbow City. Okay, and so that's going to be just about inclusion. You know, it's like, it's, I've been saying like Rainbow City, where there's no such thing as a wrong color.
So everyone can walk in, Hornbacher's has donated like milk cartons, because they're in the shape of houses, you know, so we can make a type of city and something like that. And so if kids walk in or families walk in, individuals walk in, be like, let's, let's make this, gosh, let's, what? Let's make something that ought not to be red, red, the sky, let's make the sky just, you know, bright red.
Okay, you know, let's make the road yellow. Okay, let's make the grass purple. Okay, yeah, there's no such thing.
There's no wrong answer. There's no wrong choice. Okay, there's no wrong person, so to speak.
Everyone, everyone's included. Everyone's welcome. You know, does Superman live here?
Yes. You know, does Spider-Man live here? Yes.
Do I live here? Yes. You know, we're all a part of this, you know, and that's, you know, I'm not going to speak too much about that subject.
We're just going to be painting more, but that's what's being modeled. You know, this involvement, you know, and this letting people know that they're essential, that they're important.
Ashley Thornberg
Why is that so important, especially for the younger minds to hear?
John David Berdahl
Oh, goodness, because, well, so often, and I was speaking about this when I was being chatted with by Valley News Live, which is really great, outside of Plains Art Museum just the other day, just the other morning. It was really great.
Ashley Thornberg
I saw that. Oh, you did?
John David Berdahl
I did. Yeah. Yeah, that went super, super well.
I had to actually bike to, I didn't say this, like, on that show, but I had to bike to a friend's place at 3 a.m. to get his car to drive there to be, that's how committed I am to, you know, making art. Making certain all of this happens, you know. So what is, like, the importance of inclusion, right?
Ashley Thornberg
Yeah.
John David Berdahl
What's the importance of that? Because, well, individuals, I don't know about what, it just so happens that often people feel different or they feel like they're outside or outsiders or not welcome, okay? And I find that things just slow down.
Gosh, this is so, is this, like, a truth that it's bordering on stupidity, me talking about it? You know, it's like, it's so true that people feel like they don't belong sometimes. Yeah.
And a lot of things don't get handled or, what, people don't get helped out or things don't get taken care of because they believe they're not welcome or included or supposed to be somewhere at a certain time. So to make certain that's promoted, to make certain people understand that it's, like, different doesn't mean bad.
Ashley Thornberg
Yeah.
John David Berdahl
Okay? Just because, and a lot of individuals, perhaps with one condition or another, what, and through no fault of their own, a lot of businesses, a lot of clinics, a lot of professionals will say, oh, you're not bad. You're just different or you're not wrong.
You're just different. You know, you're not ugly. You're just different.
You know, but they internalize that, that they're different, different. They just keep hearing that you're different. You're different, you know?
And so they, a lot of, I'm also a DSP, a direct support professional, and that comes up, I get asked sometimes by clients, I get asked by people, when do I stop being different?
Ashley Thornberg
Oh.
John David Berdahl
You know? When do I start being a part of just the whole, the part of the culture, part of the community? You know?
When do I stop being, you know, an outlier?
Ashley Thornberg
Right.
John David Berdahl
You know? And so that's, talking to people about that, hearing, you know, their stories, I realized, you know what, I'm just going to set up an event. So last year, I just put it on myself at the main library in Fargo, and that went really, really well.
It was like 150 people just on the last Saturday in April. You know, the first time something like that had happened, where it was, yeah, activities and just discussions, you know, and resources. You know, and people were just together in the same room, you know, just to realize, hopefully to realize, wait, we're just people.
We're not problems. We're people.
Ashley Thornberg
Yeah.
John David Berdahl
You know?
Ashley Thornberg
Yeah. Let's talk about that, because this, being told, you're not bad. You're just different.
Like, it's, the people mean well when they say something like that. But like you said, this sort of cumulative effect ends up being not particularly helpful. So, John, how do you want to talk to the people who are saying that over and over again?
Like, the education here, the onus needs to be moved on to those people, saying, you're not bad. You're just different. What are some better things that we can be saying and better ways to interact?
John David Berdahl
Absolutely. So what I've been saying about this event, and I guess the work I've been doing, too, is know better, do better, be better. Okay?
And I do believe knowing is a part of, what, working together and collaborating and accomplishing or achieving so much, you know, especially in this day and age. And, yeah, so what would I say to these individuals? Well, first, I wouldn't just call them wrong.
I wouldn't tell them to shut up. I wouldn't tell them to go away, you know, because that just swings the pendulum in the other, or to call them different, you know, because it's just this pendulum going back and forth sometimes, you know, if we may say, or if we must say, like extremes or something like that. Carl Jung talked about that in Antiodromia, just one way to the other way, and so not just settling in a balanced sort of place.
And so what I would say to some individuals is I would, you know, have a gentle and thoughtful conversation about, you know, it's kind of like, you know, when you keep calling someone something, you know, any type of label, you know, if you just keep saying it again and again and again, instead of who that person believes that person's supposed to be, you know. The individual, you know, who has, you know, and I talk about when I teach autism classes, specifically for, you know, autism classes for like autism in the workplace, autism in the household, you know, and how we can better what I suppose love each other and accept each other and learn more about each other in a very healthy and helpful sort of way. But, you know, I'll talk about, we need to presume competence and provide agency to individuals, okay, presume competence and provide agency.
And sometimes people are like, huh, what do you mean, you know, and some experts or maybe specialists who are listening to this know what I'm talking about, you know, you just walk in and it's kind of like, you're a human being. So, you know, I'm going to, you know, treat you with fairness and, you know, equality or whatever, you know. But some people still don't like, what, what do you mean, agency, what do you, is it like a law firm or what, is it real estate or, you know, you know, some people are still, and so I'll talk about.
Agency as in the ability to be independent. Absolutely, and make your own choices and follow your own path and, you know, and so I'll talk about grace, you know, and offering people that. So how would I talk to people about this subject?
I will presume they already know, you know, what it is that I'm talking about, this kind of competence, you know, I'm not saying they're as smart as I am. I'm just saying, you know, that they're educated and they're informed and they're aware of certain things. Perhaps they're aware of a lot of things that I'm not aware of, you know, me being autistic myself.
Sometimes I don't see the bigger picture, so to speak. I work to though. I've done a really good job of that.
Seeing the bigger, broader picture, because some people say I'm so wise and it's like, whoa, geez, you know, I've just, you know, paid enough attention. So I just, I talk with people. I have, you know, discussions with them, you know, I don't order them around.
I don't dictate things. I'm not an authoritarian to people if they need to change. I let them know why change could be a good idea, you know, but it's up to them.
It's really up to them if they ought to do it.
Ashley Thornberg
We're visiting today with John David Burdall. He is organizing the Anything But Typical event happening this Saturday, 10 a.m. To 4 p.m. At the Plains Art Museum, organized by the Red River Valley Asperger Autism Network, and this event is free and open to the public. John, talk a little bit more about the Red River Valley Asperger Autism Network and the work that you are doing here.
What is RRVAN?
John David Berdahl
Oh, so yeah, yeah. They're an organization that works to support families and individuals with, what, autism spectrum disorder and Asperger's syndrome. That's what I was diagnosed with, Asperger's syndrome.
That's been folded into kind of autism. It's not talked about that much anymore. It's not like it's being hidden, although, you know, some people are learning the history of, like, Dr. Asperger. And, you know, it's like, why would you even, I was asked by someone, why would you even mention that you were diagnosed with that? And I tell people it's part of the history. He was funded, he was funded by the Nazis.
So, yeah. And so some people are kind of like, whoa, whoa. And so, and that's not the only reason why it's been folded into, you know, autism spectrum disorder, that sort of thing.
It's just become kind of redundant to say high-functioning autism. Yeah. You may as well just say autism, you know.
Ashley Thornberg
Yeah.
John David Berdahl
The diagnosis is autism. Yeah. You know, yeah.
And so anyway, yeah. So they work to support individuals, support being, you know, making certain that they can come together, have meaningful and very impactful and very exciting and thrilling sorts of experiences with one another. Like, we had a game on.
I'm a board member for this organization. I'm the only board member who was diagnosed with autism. Okay.
And they have allowed me to really just take the reins, take the lead on this event. Yeah, I put it on last year by myself. This year it's a bit more of a team effort.
Yeah, exactly. And that's what I've been working towards. It can't just, it ought not to just be me, you know, doing all of this.
Because it's not, it's not about me, you know. Yeah, it's like I'm, I'm a part of it, but we're all a part of it. You know, you're a part of it too.
You're doing this work right now, the work I'm doing. Like us having this conversation. That's how change is happening.
You know, all of us just sitting down, you know, and doing it. And so that's what RVAN attempts to promote and succeeds in doing that sort of thing. Yeah, so we were having, like, before I joined there were, I think it was the League, and there were Legos, and they had something called the League.
And we, when I joined, or when I was recruited for the board there to be a board member, we had Movie Mondays going on at Marcus Theatres, where it was a sensory-friendly sort of experience. And we're chatting with the Fargo Theatre about continuing that sort of thing.
Ashley Thornberg
What is a sensory-friendly experience? What does that mean?
John David Berdahl
Oh, yeah. So for us, for the experience we were attempting, or that we did provide. So yeah, it would be like, I would go around the theatre and ask, you know, individuals, are the lights set to where you need it?
Just to make certain, you know, people were having a very pleasant, a very rewarding, you know, a very entertaining, you know, sort of time. You know, comfortable, I guess too. Comfortable, you know, and safe sort of time.
So yeah, the lights weren't too bright. You know, the volume wasn't too loud. And so Marcus Theatres would turn down the volume of the film in the theatre.
Ashley Thornberg
And it's like, yeah, how amazing is that? Yeah. You know?
Well, that was one of the more interesting things that, to me anyway, came out of COVID is the amount of people who started to sort of realize how much the environment around them impacts the mood. That was the first time that I realized I didn't need to get a headache every single day. That it was the lights causing the headache.
And when I was working from home, I just don't have fluorescent light bulbs at home. So, you know, I wasn't exposed to them every single day. And then now, when I'm here at work, I don't turn on the overhead lights in the studio.
What a shocking thing. But it took until COVID for me to really realize that. Let's talk about, John, some of the systemic issues that can come up, just like you said, from this complete lack of knowledge, even on my own part.
And that's just a sensitivity to light there. But I'm thinking of things like teachers who might have 30 and 40 students in their classroom and can't give sort of the same individualized attention to students who might otherwise be able to thrive with just a small change, like the temperature or the lights.
John David Berdahl
Certainly, yeah. And I suppose it kind of seems simple. You know, that's what I was thinking of.
It seems like simple things to do, just to ask, are you comfortable? You know, is this the type of environment that is conducive towards you learning or something like that? But I guess, yeah, some kids would be like, huh?
You know?
Ashley Thornberg
Yeah, yeah, yeah. When you say conducive, maybe, you know.
John David Berdahl
What? Sort of thing. So, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, talking about things. Definitely, what I talk or what I present about, I've been presenting to like the Moorhead Police Department. And it's just a joy to be there, you know?
Ashley Thornberg
What are you doing with the police?
John David Berdahl
Oh, so I talk to them about what to do in kind of crisis situations or difficult situations if individuals on the spectrum, if officers, you know, need to, you know, handle something or protect and serve. You know, if there's been some sort of crime or if there's some sort of, you know, difficulty or complexity or, you know. And so I've been working with them.
I've been presenting now for a couple of years in the fall and in the spring to their officers and talking about certain, you know, like how to talk to some autistic individuals, like being descriptive, utilizing concrete language, you know. Don't...
Ashley Thornberg
Give us some examples if you could.
John David Berdahl
Oh, sure. Absolutely. So, yeah, the first thing I let them know is just do not show up and get right in their face, you know.
Because autistic individuals, they're incredibly sensitive to, of course, like close proximity and also making direct eye contact. That can make them very, very uncomfortable. That can make them very, very, I don't know about unstable, but, you know.
Right. Really resistant.
Ashley Thornberg
Sure. But in this culture, that's interpreted as sort of being not trustworthy.
John David Berdahl
Oh, yeah. I suppose so, yeah. Not looking at a person's eyes and, you know, or non-compliant, you know.
So talking about non-compliant. To be really specific, I talked to them just recently and I've been working. It's not like I've been hiding some things when talking to them or talking to schools because I talked to Minnesota State Community Technical College as well, to law enforcement students and dental students and nursing students.
And they had so many questions, you know. But anyway, so the officers, the officers at the Moorhead Police Department, I was talking with them and I just, I work things in gradually instead of here is everything all at once because I realized they do not have a brain like I do, you know, because that's how I, you know.
Ashley Thornberg
There's only so much information my brain can take in before it fatigues.
John David Berdahl
And that's what I've been learning, that mine, I can assimilate vast amounts, you know. I can, you know, just I can learn so much so quickly with the memory that I've got and not knowing how to like feel tired or feel nervous. So I just, I've just absorbed stuff and now I've learned living in, I suppose, a typical sort of world, a typical dominant world, you know.
In no way do I mean to put, like to say I'm being dominated, but it's like a right-hand dominant world, you know, a typical, a neurotypical dominant.
Ashley Thornberg
It's just harder to be left-handed in this society.
John David Berdahl
Yeah, yeah, that's what I've been told. I'm right-handed. Anyway, so I've been working in, you know, some kind of subject or some topics or terms, you know, slowly, you know, as to not overwhelm individuals.
But one we just talked about was demand avoidance, okay. And so human beings do that sort of thing, demand avoidance. But individuals with autism do it, or it's sometimes called pathological demand avoidance or pervasive demand avoidance, okay.
Ashley Thornberg
Yeah, I don't know what that means.
John David Berdahl
So, yeah, and thank you so much. And they didn't know either. And for me, I live, I live this, you know.
I don't really exhibit it because, again, I don't know how to feel. The other symptom I've got, alexithymia, kind of cancels it out a little bit. So that's how I look typical or I look normal because of just how, I don't know, it's like a magic sort of, I don't know, it's the right sort of, the mix, the right mix of symptoms that I've got kind of made it so it looks like I'm just your average sort of Joe or average sort of John.
Anyway, so, yeah, demand avoidance, as anxiety rises, okay, avoidance increases or as demand or pressure, as pressure increases, okay. As you confront someone, especially on the autism spectrum, if they start to feel really uncomfortable, they will begin to say, no, no, you know, they won't, they won't work with you. They won't agree with it.
They won't, you know, and also if it's not part of the routine, if it's not part of, you know, the repetitive, I don't know about behavior or something like that. Yeah, and so how that often looks sometimes is parents will say kind of, what, it's zero degrees outside, Jimmy, you got to wear your jacket. And Jimmy will go, no.
And there's just no, there's no way around. There's no way to convince him, you know.
Ashley Thornberg
Yeah.
John David Berdahl
And if you start to push even more, if you start to demand even more, they're going to shut down. Yeah, more avoidance, more resist, more refusal, you know. And so I talk to the officers about this.
The more you try and push someone on the spectrum, the more, because I don't know how to be intimidated. You know, I tell officers that. I don't know how to be scared.
I don't know how to be, you know, like I've had officers, you know, question me about just certain things. What did you see? You know, where are you going at certain times?
And I'll just be like, what are you doing? You know, I'll just chat with them as if we're like best friends. And they're like, what are you?
They'll be like, what are you doing? You know, like, don't you get how this works? And it's like, well, you're just a person, you know.
It's like, I don't see officer. I don't see, you know, that sort of thing. And so I do now, of course, you know.
And of course, I present to them. Right. I respect them so much.
Ashley Thornberg
Right. But that would be interpreted as sort of defiance and something that needs to be punished. Yeah.
John David Berdahl
Or maybe I'm on drugs.
Ashley Thornberg
And it's just something that needs to be understood differently.
John David Berdahl
Yeah, absolutely. And that happens in classrooms. That happens in households.
Parents are like, oh my gosh, I had no idea that's going on inside. You know, that totally makes sense now. You know, why it seems like they're being my son or daughter or our child is being so, I guess, difficult, you know.
I just thought, you know, they just didn't care or something like that. But it's just, no, how a person, I guess, is wired or how the brain is firing and interpreting the input, you know. And when people know about that, how involuntary a lot of the behavior or a lot of the conduct is, you know, that leads to, you know, them kind of easing off a little bit or calming down, you know.
So it's kind of like, oh, they're not doing it out of spite, you know. That's just how they, you know, that's just how they, you know, experience it. That's just how their brains are experiencing it, you know.
And I've put in the work. So now I can talk about it, you know, hopefully in a very clear way, you know, to you and to others.
Ashley Thornberg
Yeah. We just have about a minute and a half left here, but I want to learn about your role as an access coordinator also at the Plains Art Museum. What is that?
John David Berdahl
Yeah, so that's something. So I work with them. I don't work for them.
You know, I made certain. Now they're creating, like, oh, so I'm an access consultant. Okay.
And so that's how I work with them. And they're putting together this access coordinator kind of position where individuals, I imagine it will be a professional or some type of, I don't know about expert maybe, but a person who has a wealth of knowledge and wealth of experience and knows how to apply that in certain situations, especially at that sort of, you know, I guess organization or location or destination where people can't, golly, I had to stop right there. I was going to keep, I was going to perseverate. I was going to stay on track and keep saying words that ended in, you know, T-I-O-N.
Anyway, so.
Ashley Thornberg
Just because you can doesn't mean you should.
John David Berdahl
Yeah, exactly. And I have to catch it. That's the kind of work I have to do to make certain I'm relatable, you know.
Anyway, so yeah, they'll find a person. If it's me, that'd be great. You know, I absolutely volunteer.
But to make things fair and fun, you know, and really accommodating, you know, and accessible for so many individuals who have, I suppose, disabilities or if we must say limitations or exceptionalities, you know. Yeah.
Ashley Thornberg
Visiting today with John David Birtle about the event Anything But Typical happening this Saturday at the Plains Art Museum. It is free and open to the public. It is 10 a.m. to 4 p.m. This is a celebration of neurodivergence and your opportunity to learn about how different brains work differently and how we can ideally learn to understand one another and come to just be in a little bit more harmony.
John David Berdahl
Yes, absolutely. Unity, harmony. I was just asked by John Strand.
I was visiting with him and he had said, like, what does rich look like to you? You know, or what is wealth? What does wealth look like to you, John?
You know, I'm sitting in his office. Wow, what a question. What a great question.
I said that to him, too. What a great question. Yeah.
You know, and I had said, first, opportunity and ability. That's like wealth to me. But then he said, visibly, or like visually, what does that look like to you?
Everyone in the same room talking it out. You know, that to me is wealthy. That to me is rich.
You know, that to me, and so that's what this event is totally all about. Yes, it's for families to learn more, you know, or people who are curious, you know, about neurodivergence, neuroatypical conditions, you know, that brain being, I suppose, that different. But it's for all of us to come together.
There's going to be board games. There's going to be, yeah, activities. There's going to be an art activity, meet and greet area, businesses tabling on the third floor.
So, yeah, people can just talk to those businesses that attempt to help out as much as possible.
Ashley Thornberg
A wealth of opportunities and information, 10 a.m. to 4 p.m. at the Plains Art Museum. John, thank you so much for your time today.
John David Berdahl
Oh, yes. You're very, very welcome. Thank you.
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