MICHEL MARTIN, HOST:
We're going to turn next to Hanna Shelest for a take on this from Ukraine. She followed the meeting from Odesa. She's the director of security programs of the Foreign Policy Council's Ukrainian Prism think tank, and she's with us now. Good morning, Ms. Shelest. Thanks so much for joining us.
HANNA SHELEST: Good morning.
MARTIN: What did you hear from this meeting that would help Ukraine most in this ongoing war?
SHELEST: First of all, it's definitely the unity of our European partners. That's what Russia is trying to destroy as much as possible. And the resolution, finally, to speak about the certain boots on the ground, but also on sea. And here, the U.S. position is very important for everybody, first of all, not only in terms of capabilities of the weapons, but the unity, trans-Atlantic unity of the support that Russia is trying to destroy as much as possible. But everybody understands that it is intermediary meeting. It is really a huge step after February, but nobody's looking at it as the final or, like, the decisions that really would be like this. Everybody understands that a lot of work should be done to make it practical.
MARTIN: So we just heard that the United States' part in this plan has not been determined yet. Now, you know, it's been reported that Germany is waiting for the U.S. to give details about its plans before it says what Germany will do. Are you concerned that this is indicative of a broader issue where, you know, other leaders are going to wait for somebody else to commit first?
SHELEST: We had this problem previously, if we would remember the tank coalition, for example. But here, I think that the decision is much more practical. A lot of the U.S. forces are based at the Germany territory. So definitely Germany would like to understand the involvement of these forces, for example, their capabilities. The second is that a lot of, for example, the air defense capabilities, they dependent on the U.S. airplanes that are patrolling the territories or from the satellites that deliver the intelligence information. So here, to make a real plan, you need to understand is the United States involved or not.
MARTIN: What do you see as the most likely role that the U.S. would take on?
SHELEST: You know, honestly, with all these statements that from the Ministry of Defense were coming to the Ministry of War, first of all, we would like to see the probably end of all these two weeks promises for the Russian president because we see how the Russian president now is really bullying the U.S. side with all the statements, everything what been agreed in Alaska or other meetings, telephone calls. He's now just telling, oh, no, I never promised anything like this, and he's waiting what will be the reaction of the United States. So we definitely now see the game of the political wills and manipulations, especially from the Russian side. And probably from the United States, everybody would like to see clarity in terms of their approach towards Russia.
MARTIN: Well, just so I understand, you're saying that what - you said these two-week promises, you feel that the United States, that the Trump administration sort of keeps kicking the can down the road and giving Russia more time. Is that what I hear you saying, that you'd just like to see a definitive answer about what the U.S.' role is going to be? Is that what you're saying?
SHELEST: It's not only my saying, but we are monitoring the Russian channels, and we see the reaction from the Russian side. And we see that the last months they're really mocking these two weeks in different TV shows, for example, or in the social networks, from the different opinion-makers, and they are saying, like, oh, don't worry, yet one call and we receive additional two weeks or two months without the new sanctions. We just need to keep promising.
MARTIN: Yes.
SHELEST: So the factor we see that it is really read like this by the opponents in Moscow.
MARTIN: So after this demonstration of solidarity from European leaders, President Putin said foreign troops in Ukraine would be a legitimate target for Russian forces. How do you hear that?
SHELEST: Easily, as the element of deterrence. He understands that only the NATO countries forces at the Ukrainian territory can be the real guarantee in additional to the strong Ukraine armed forces because he understands that it is not something he would like to risk. So he needs to do as much as possible to prevent their deployment because he feels that, in this case, he can attack further as soon as he needs it, without any evidences or the witness for this or support for Ukraine.
MARTIN: We've been here before, as you noted, Europe and the U.S. have made promises to Ukraine, yet the war continues. What's your sense of how Ukrainians are experiencing this back and forth in this moment?
SHELEST: I would say that because we are with this for the last year with both administrations, that's why Ukrainians are just saying that, yeah, we're really thankful for the U.S. people, first of all, to all that support that we are receiving, but the real security guarantees is just Ukrainian armed forces and the strong position of the society in this war. So that's probably this determination is the main logic and the main sentiment in the Ukrainian society because people understand it's not the fight for territories, it's fight for people.
MARTIN: That's Hanna Shelest. She's the director of security Programs of the Foreign Policy Council's Ukrainian Prism think tank. We reached her in Odesa, Ukraine. Ms. Shelest, thanks so much for joining us.
SHELEST: Thank you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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