SCOTT DETROW, HOST:
One of the last major moves that Pope Francis made before he died this year was to send an unusually blunt letter to American bishops, raising concerns about the Trump administration's immigration policies and reminding them that the Catholic Church has long stood on the side of the migrant. Then one of the first major moves that Pope Leo made after he was elected was to appoint Bishop Michael Pham as the head of San Diego's diocese. Since then, Pham, who came to the U.S. as a child refugee from Vietnam, has been navigating the tense and politicized issue - at times, showing up himself at immigration courts. Bishop Pham joins us now to talk about this and other aspects of the job. Welcome to ALL THINGS CONSIDERED.
MICHAEL PHAM: Thank you, Scott, for inviting me to be on your show.
DETROW: You know, Bishop, you heard how I introduced you, and you know what actions you've taken that have made headlines. Before we talk in detail about immigration, first, I'm wondering how you see this issue compared to everything else that's on your plate. To you, is this the predominant issue on your mind that you're dealing with day to day?
PHAM: This issue is a major issue for us - Catholic church - to consider and to be helpful to the people, especially for immigrants, migrants, asylum-seekers and refugees, because the church is always journey with the people.
DETROW: Yeah.
PHAM: And that's why it is important for us to be that voice for the people, particularly for the migrants.
DETROW: The idea of walking with somebody, of accompanying somebody, it's such a part of church teaching, and you have seen it play out in a very specific way in that you have been going to these immigration courts, these places where so many detentions are taking place. Other priests have been there as well. Why is it important to you for the church to be there in that hallway when ICE agents are making these detentions?
PHAM: You know, first of all, my own experience as a person who had lived in a country where we face our own oppressions and our own personal freedom had been taken away and being accepted as a refugee into this country - and I'm so grateful and thankful for the opportunity to be here to experience the freedoms that have been given, not perfect but is a freedom that we as a people can enjoy. And knowing that, you know, every country, as the church teaches, has a right to have their border to protect the citizens, we respect the law of the country. But at the same time, seeing people being mistreated through deportations, and so it's important for me as a church to be a leader who will walk with the people.
DETROW: Yeah.
PHAM: And when we were present at the court with the people, they were so comforted. They were so thankful and grateful that we were there for them in time like this. They're facing their own fear about their own family. It's just a difficult time and knowing that we can't do much of anything...
DETROW: Yeah.
PHAM: ...But just the fact that being present, they're so happy and grateful that we were there.
DETROW: I read a quote in an interview you gave, where you talked about an interesting moment, a conversation you had with a government lawyer in the courthouse where he told you he felt conflicted. Can you tell us about that conversation?
PHAM: He is a faithful Catholic, caring for his family, going to church regularly and seeing people going to the court for deportation. At times, he's conflicted because he has his own family. And if his family facing this sort of things, it would be very difficult. And in facing these difficulties, he felt conflicted. But he said, well, this is my job. That's what I'm asked to do, and I'm doing the best I can. And so if anything's that contradicting his moral values, according to the Gospel, then he would have to decide what is best for his family.
DETROW: Yeah. Another quote I read, you said, when I was 10 years old living in Vietnam, I witnessed this situation. It involves seeing people being taken away without an obvious reason. Can you tell me more about any more parallels you're seeing from your childhood and how you're thinking about that and how you're navigating that yourself?
PHAM: Yeah, my experience when I was 10 years old seeing government soldiers coming to homes and to take away their fathers or mothers and being put in jails or prison, that image stuck with me. And when I saw the news images with ICE agents taking people away out of restaurants or companies, at work or at home, it really trigger my image when I was 10 years old seeing all that playing out again.
DETROW: Yeah.
PHAM: And living in this country where democracy is what we uphold and to have this way of treating people without dignity and respect, I felt really contradicting who we are, who we believed in in this country. And so that was sad and disheartening for me to see that.
DETROW: Bishop, if I'm hearing you repeatedly say, you know, the church believes a country has the right to follow the laws that it sets, and I'm hearing you express that to you, the way it's done matters, the way that people are treated matters and that the cruelty that we have seen, whether it's on social media or in some of these videos, does, in fact, matter. Is that a fair way to hear what you're saying?
PHAM: Correct. Yeah, we are a human family, and as Christians, we believe in that God created us humans in his image and likeness and in treating people with dignity and respect. That's what we are called to do so that we can bring peace and justice and love to the world. But if we don't have that, conflicts will continue to happen, and it's sad to see.
DETROW: That's Michael Pham, the Bishop of San Diego. Thank you so much for talking to us.
PHAM: Thank you. You take care.
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