This year's Black History Month spotlights "Africans and the Arts." Join us for an enlightening round-table featuring Zeapoe Matalda, a distinguished Black filmmaker; Dr. Greg Carlson, a film professor at Concordia; and our esteemed movie critic, Matt Olien.
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The interview for Black History Month focuses on African contributions to the arts, emphasizing cinema. Highlights include:
- Diverse Career Paths: Zeapoe Matalda discusses transitioning from music to filmmaking, highlighting a multifaceted artistic journey.
- Inspirational Figures: Angela Bassett and Spike Lee are mentioned as significant influences, illustrating the impact of representation in the arts.
- Historical Representation in Film: The discussion touches on the evolution of black representation in Hollywood, from problematic portrayals to more nuanced and respectful depictions.
- Cultural Impact of Films: "Black Panther" is discussed for its groundbreaking success and cultural significance, showing the potential of black-led films in mainstream cinema.
- Challenges and Opportunities: The roundtable covers challenges in funding and casting for diverse projects while also recognizing the progress and potential for greater representation in film.
February is Black History Month and the theme of this year's Black History Month is Africans and the arts. So today we are having a celebration of black contribution to the arts and also the lack of representation that has been far more common throughout this country's history.
We have a roundtable discussion today with Dr. Gregory Carlson from Concordia College, a professor in the communication studies and theater arts program and director of the film studies program. Dr. Carlson thanks for joining us today.
Dr. Gregory Carlson
Thanks for having me.
Ashley Thornberg
We also have a Prairie Public television producer and our film critic Matt Olien. Matt, thanks for joining us today.
Matt Olien
Thanks Ashley.
Ashley Thornberg
And we have Zeapoe Matalda. She is a filmmaker who does a lot of work also in the music world and does a great deal of work producing. Zeapoe, thank you for joining us today.
Thank you so much.
Ashley Thornberg
Zeapoe, you are the new person here. Matt and Greg have had a lot of air time on Main Street.
So we'll start a little bit with you and about your background. You have a bachelor's degree in music composition from Seattle Pacific University and most of the work that I saw deals a little bit more heavily in music. So talk about your entree into the world of music and then how it evolved into film.
Zeapoe Matalda
Sure. So as an undergrad at Seattle Pacific, I was very much involved with the orchestra. I was involved with the wind symphony.
I did a lot of instrumental work and I also was just really interested in pursuing musical theater. And the program there was more centered on classical music. So I was a little bit of a black sheep in the in the department.
And then I just kind of, as I progressed and I grew and I defined who I wanted to be as an artist and what I wanted to do, I decided to, I guess, try to learn the production process on my own. I started doing at-home recording and just learning about how to use production tools, softwares and things like that. And then eventually it just sort of evolved to me building my own like tracks.
So if you, for every song, you know, you have the producer who builds the track in the audio software. And I just learned how to do that on my own. And then after that it kind of continued to spiral into me just kind of like producing my own work and then eventually trying to bring that into a full realization through film and music videos specifically.
And as I did that process I decided, you know, I have a very strong theater background. So I just kind of started adding a little bit more acting into the music videos and that sort of spiraled into more interesting filmmaking. So it's kind of just been kind of like a very natural like snowball, if you think of it that way.
Ashley Thornberg
Sure, so you didn't necessarily grow up as seeing someone on in the movies and then saying, this is what I need to do.
Zeapoe Matalda
I think it's, as an artist, I think you collectively have those, you know, people that you you watch and you grow up and you are interested in what they do. But the way it becomes, you know, your path is very unique. So I think it's always kind of been, you know, it's like that love that I never knew I had, you know.
And then you kind of like discover it as you grow. So I think, you know, film has always been something and specifically acting has always been something that I've been passionate about. So I think filmmaking was just a natural, again, something that just naturally came eventually.
Ashley Thornberg
Yeah, there is this saying, you know, you cannot be what you cannot see. And it is so important for representation. Was there a film or a certain genre of films or even one particular actor or actress or musician, perhaps in this case, that was particularly meaningful for inspiring your career path?
Zeapoe Matalda
I would say off the top of my head, film wise, I would say I've always been inspired by Angela Bassett, someone that my mother has actually always been inspired by too. And just as I've matured and been able to like really watch her, I guess, her history and just see all the films that she's done and her repertoire, I've just become more, you know, amazed by her level of, I guess, talent and the way that she portrays characters so, you know, just from a very profound understanding of the character. And I just really admire her work as a whole, especially when it came, I know we'll talk about this later, but in Black Panther, you know, it's just it's those are the people that, you know, if I think about definitely Denzel Washington, these are names that I grew up hearing in my house every day.
So it's like, you know, you just kind of naturally know who those people are, household names, I guess you'd say. And yeah, there's a few others I could think of, I would say music wise, I've always been inspired by the Beyonce, the one and only. And I've also been inspired by many, I guess, many different genres of music.
So it just kind of all comes together that way.
Matt Olien
And Zepo, Spike Lee, also, you mentioned beforehand, big influence on you as well.
Zeapoe Matalda
Very much so. He's always kind of like the person who we viewed similar to like Michael Jackson, like this is the person who's like, you know, everyone just, you know, even Spielberg in my mind, you know, just kind of like his level of just, you know, depth of understanding of cultural, like, I guess, experiences of African Americans. And also, you know, just the gravity of his work.
I think it's just always been something you just know his name.
Dr. Gregory Carlson
Lee to me is so transcendent. For many years, I've asked the question, why has no American filmmaker remade Kurosawa's High and Low? And just this last month, Spike Lee announced that he will be reteaming with Denzel Washington to make an American Hollywood studio release version of a film that when you see it, you think this this feels like a gripping Hollywood style thriller.
Ashley Thornberg
Greg, you're the film historian in particular in this group, although Matt, you certainly have a great deal of film knowledge as well. I'm really interested in the names that Zeapoe was throwing out there and that it Yeah, of course, Denzel Washington, Angela Bassett, and being able to have common household names. That has not been the case.
Historically, let's talk about when we maybe even first got to a tipping point of when you can really be taking this seriously. It wasn't a bunch of white people in blackface.
Dr. Gregory Carlson
Well, you know, yeah, the issue of blackface is something that, you know, Matt, Matt can touch on, you know, we can get to but it's horrifying to watch now if you look at those old movies. Go ahead, Greg. No, I was just gonna say that, you know, the it's the work of pioneering film historians and theorists and cultural critics like Donald Bogle, you know, who wrote several of the works that film students would be exposed to kind of to get an understanding of just how difficult the trajectory of representation was for actors once the silent era, you know, there was virtually outside of what are often referred to as race films, that would be, you know, films, black films made by black filmmakers for black audiences, sometimes shown as like on the road, you might show it at a church or you might show it at a fair. You know, when you think about the transition into sound, how many times have we all seen the clip of Al Jolson in The Jazz Singer and sort of... You ain't seen nothing yet.
You ain't seen nothing yet and you kind of overlook, you know, certainly the overculture has overlooked the fact that that is a, you know, a black face representation of minstrelsy. One of my favorite movies is Spike Lee's Bamboozled, which does as good a job as any in deconstructing the history of minstrelsy. And...
Ashley Thornberg
Set our listeners up with a little bit better definition.
Dr. Gregory Carlson
Yeah, sure. It would be, you know, for many white Americans, the minstrel show would be the first encounter they had with the art and music and performance of African Americans, former slaves. And so the perpetuation of negative stereotypes was ingrained during the minstrel show era, where in fact, many performers would be, you know, white performers putting, you know, burnt cork on their face and, you know, and wigs on their heads.
And so it gave rise to, you know, it's the title of one of Bogle's books, in fact, is a kind of a litany of the famous stereotypes that came out of the minstrel show. So Lee did an incredible job in Bamboozled deconstructing this idea. The film ends with an absolutely, you know, heart-wrenching montage showing how we've taken for granted in our culture, dozens upon dozens of clips from cartoons and TV shows and, you know, familiar characters that perpetuate negative stereotypes.
But even this year, Matt and I saw American Fiction. And, you know, that uses some of the same ideas that Spike Lee was playing with in the film Bamboozled, which is high on my list of recommendations.
Ashley Thornberg
And the synopsis here of that film, if I'm not mistaken, is there's a black writer who can't get taken seriously because he sounds too white. He doesn't sound black enough, right?
Matt Olien
Right. And then he writes, he decides to write a book using, you know, language or how white Americans would think people would talk or black Americans would talk. And all of a sudden his book sells.
Ashley Thornberg
Yeah.
Matt Olien
And he just wants to be an author and not a black author. So it's an interesting film. It's up for quite a few Oscars.
So it kind of follows what Greg was saying with the Bamboozled. And I don't know, Zeapoe, if you've seen Bamboozled, the Spike Lee film, it's really, like Greg said, it really kind of tries to get at the history of minstrel shows and things like that and representation. But, you know, Greg mentioned blackface and Turner Classic Movies has an amazing segment.
It's like seven or eight minutes long on the history of blackface. And when you watch it now, you're like, how did this ever, how was this ever allowed? It's so, it's so offensive.
I don't know if you've seen any of those old films, like The Jazz Singer, things like that, Zeapoe.
Zeapoe Matalda
I've seen things.
Matt Olien
Yeah. Yeah. It's horrifying, isn't it?
How do you feel when you see Al Jolson in Wonder Bar or The Jazz Singer singing with blackface on?
Zeapoe Matalda
I mean, I think it's, for me, when I see any type of minstrel depiction or blackface, I always think of it as, you know, something that we need to just be aware of. I think you have to know exactly what, where we came from, what, yeah, what, what it was like at that time. I think it is difficult to digest.
And it's also just, you know, trying to find a way, you know, to allow ourselves to know that history, but at the same time, you know, try to promote what we believe, you know, is important. So I wouldn't say it's something that I like to, you know, like to think about too often, but I do, um, I do understand the value of, you know, having those records and, and, and what that timeframe was like.
Matt Olien
And even big performers like Fred Astaire, you know, he does this Bill Bojangles Robinson tribute, uh, number in Swing Time, the Astaire Rogers movie, and it's a great movie, but in the middle of the movie, there he is in blackface. And I'm not suggesting Fred Astaire wasn't, didn't truly admire Bill Robinson because he did, but I think as he probably grew older, he may have regretted doing that number. Um, Judy Garland put blackface on in a musical.
Mickey Rooney did it. It was very typical. Uh, there's a, there's a sequence in Wonder Bar, just, it goes on for like eight or nine minutes of Al Jolson going up to heaven.
He's has blackface on, and it's kind of this weird, awful depiction of what white people think black heaven would be in 1934. And he gets up to heaven, there's pork chops growing on trees, there's chickens coming out of the oven, there's watermelon. It is, it's as, how I'm describing it is even worse when you see it.
And this stuff was, was acceptable up until about World War II. And then you see, you see the end of it.
Zeapoe Matalda
Yeah. I think that just reiterates the importance of what we portray, especially coming out of Hollywood. You know, it's like, there's a huge influence that films have on culture and there's a huge responsibility there.
So I believe that, you know, that just needs to be continued, like to be looked at in our current, you know, timeframe as well. You know, how are we portraying one another in a grand scale?
Ashley Thornberg
That is Zeapoe Matalda. She is a filmmaker and she is also active with the Fargo-Moorhead Opera. We're also in conversation today with Matt Olien, who is of course our film reviewer, and Dr. Gregory Carlson, the director of the film studies program at Concordia College. We're having a roundtable discussion today for Black History Month on this year's theme, Africans and the arts. Zeapoe, this is a little bit outside the scope of directly filmmaking, but I feel like for so long the conversation about race and race relations, the onus has been on the marginalized voice to explain what racism is and how racism works and how it can be harmful to mental, spiritual, physical, even on a genetic level to the health here. Do you feel like that conversation is evolving one way or the other?
Zeapoe Matalda
I definitely do. I think it's been a huge part of my experience just, you know, being an African-American woman and having just, you know, have to navigate what that reality is with, you know, my own friends, you know. It's like you have this other, I guess, identity where you have to always be the person to educate.
You spend all your mental energy, your emotional labor doing this work. It is emotional labor and I always give credit to the people that I know who, rather than coming to ask me, you know, can you explain to me why, you know, the history of race in America, they'll go and grab books, they'll go and read, they'll go and, you know, do their research and, you know, make it, you know, an effort to try to, you know, become, you know, adequate in their own way, you know. And also just advocating for our own mental health in that sense of just like, you know, it takes a lot to just always, you know, have to, you know, explain or to, you know, educate and, you know, it's not your responsibility, you know, to do that, whether, you know, you know, you're African-American or whatever ethnicity you are.
You're, you know, you do that out of hope that you can help somebody, but it's also just, you know, important to understand it is not your job to educate your friends and to like, yeah.
Ashley Thornberg
Yeah, well, I wonder too, I was having a conversation with a friend recently about the author, Margaret Atwood, and he said, Oh, that's my favorite female author. And I sort of went, I kind of cringed at that. And maybe he just has another author that he likes better.
But I wonder if this is a valid question, even and feel free to be blunt here. But when we say things like, this is a black filmmaker, does that open more doors or close more doors? Do you think?
Zeapoe Matalda
I think it's one of those things where people ask, you know, is it better to just, you know, not necessarily like, identify somebody as a black person? Or, you know, is it better to say, yeah, is this is a black filmmaker, I think it's more important to allow people to, I always like to allow people to identify themselves how they prefer to be identified. So, you know, I always, you know, ask, even if I'm asking someone's ethnicity, I always start with, you know, asking them, you know, I always say, what is your background?
Or, you know, I say it in that way, sometimes people get a little candid, and they say, what are you? And that's always kind of like, you know, on the verge of like being a little like, what breed are you? It's, it's kind of, it's difficult to, you know, it's difficult to, especially in America, we have that tendency to not really want to offend, you know, we're always trying to be politically correct.
So I would say, I would always, you know, just ask people how they want to be identified, because sometimes people will say, you know, I don't see myself as, you know, black, I see myself as, you know, a mixed race, you know, filmmaker, you know, so it's always good to be, I think, just sensitive, in that sense.
Ashley Thornberg
How do you describe yourself?
Zeapoe Matalda
I would just always, you know, I'm very lenient, whenever somebody, some people say, you know, black, or somebody will say African American, you know, I'm, you know, African, sometimes I have trouble just knowing what to call myself. So I would, I would just, you know, be fine with anybody saying, you know, I prefer the term, maybe like, BIPOC, you know, or something, or, you know, something, I don't mind acronyms. I'm like, yeah, I'm BIPOC.
You know, it's simple. But, yeah, or I'll answer to black, or black filmmaker. Not black.
Ashley Thornberg
Yeah. Greg, I want to talk to you about the birth of a nation. And this is something that as I understand it, Spike Lee is still talking about when he teaches filmmaking.
And I have never seen this movie, but I understand it's just horrendously racist. Is there a value, first describe the movie, and then, and anyone who wants to weigh in here can, is there a value to looking at something that's just racist to a level that is beyond?
Dr. Gregory Carlson
Sure. Yeah, well, I mean, certainly, our country's motion picture history had the great misfortune of D.W. Griffith's incredible talent as a visual storyteller, because we know the birth of a nation to be the movie that Woodrow Wilson called writing history with lightning, when he screened it at the White House, I believe. So it does, of course, perpetuate these negative stereotypes we alluded to earlier in our conversation, and uses a lot of white actors appearing in blackface and exaggerating the kinds of the negative stereotypes that have been perpetuated about African Americans since they were an enslaved people.
Is it valuable to teach a film like the birth of a nation? I don't personally teach it, but my film professor and mentor did, and thought it was really important to look at as sort of a historical artifact, much in the way maybe Spike Lee would use it as a conversation starter about things that are problematic. Beyond that, I think, you know, Griffith's greatest shortcoming is not only, you know, does he grossly misread the room, he is himself a racist and does not do himself any favors by, in effect, promoting the Ku Klux Klan through the imagery of the birth of a nation.
Matt Olien
They ride to the rescue in the film scene, right, Greg?
Dr. Gregory Carlson
Yeah, there's so many moments within the film that kind of etch themselves into your memory, even if you've only seen it one time. For example, you know, rather than face the threat of sexual assault, a young white woman throws herself off a cliff. And, you know, we sometimes, we've all heard the phrase before, a fate worse than death.
And I read an interesting book about the making of John Ford's The Searchers that talks about this concept in great detail from kind of an academic lens. What does it mean when we say a fate worse than death? It was the fear of miscegenation, it was the fear of, you know, being assaulted, not being assaulted in and of itself, but being assaulted by a person of a minority or what was perceived as an inferior ethnicity.
Matt Olien
You know, and then we get to Gone with the Wind, Ashley, which is certainly an improvement on Birth of a Nation. But you still have, it's a book written by a white woman from the South, Margaret Mitchell. And right in the opening, you know, title of the film, you know, this is a story about cavaliers and slaves and it's no more Gone with the Wind.
So it's almost romanticizing it. It, I mean, it's a, it's a, it's an entertaining film to watch. The performances are great.
Vivian Lee, Clark Gable, Hattie McDaniel wins the Academy Award as Mammy. And she's great in the movie, but Hattie McDaniel played maids. That's who she, you know, that's who she played back in those days.
So it's, it's a problematic film to watch now. And it's, I'm always kind of torn on it, Greg and Sipo, because it's a, it's a very entertaining movie. Hattie McDaniel wins the Oscar versus three white actresses.
But at the Oscar ceremony, she has to sit in the back. She doesn't, she doesn't even get to sit with David O. Selznick, Vivian Lee, Clark Gable.
And she walks all the way from the back to get her award. And it's a key moment because she wins. And then she famously doesn't get invited to the big premiere in Atlanta and her friend Clark Gable, who was very conscious on that set of making sure that the black actors had the same bathroom facilities.
Gable really comes off well when you read about that movie and he was threatening not to go to the premiere in Atlanta because his friend Hattie McDaniel wasn't invited. And she said, you know, Clark, you need to go. So it's kind of this double-edged sword.
She wins the Oscar, but it's as a maid. And it isn't until Sidney Poitier wins for Lilies of the Field in 1963 that we finally get this superstar actor winning in a performance that's not a servant and not a maid.
Ashley Thornberg
Zeapoe, Matt was talking about Clark Gable on the set of Gone With the Wind. And I wanna talk to you about this concept of white allies, because I think there's kind of two ways you can look at this.
Like, do we really need to congratulate him for being just a nice guy? Or, you know, how do we look at it of, you know, was it that hard to stand up, given the culture at the time?
Zeapoe Matalda
I definitely think there needs to be some credit given where it's due. I feel like, you know, those are, when you have that influence and you can make an impact and you use it, that's essentially what I think all people should do. And I think that, you know, a lot of people don't.
Sometimes it's just fear. Sometimes, you know, they, you know, just being on the spot, you know, and standing up for something you believe is right when you have a lot of friends who don't support you. You know, it's that fear of being the outlier, I think, that, you know, that you have to overcome as an individual, no matter what ethnicity you are.
So I think that, especially in that timeframe, when you literally could, you know, you could be blacklisted. You could be, you know, just outcasted by, you know, people for speaking out about things, you know, and injustice in general. So I think that, I personally think that credit should be given where it's due.
That's the way I would say it, so.
Ashley Thornberg
All right, I want to talk about a film here, Black Panther. First off, Matt, give us, I mean, this was wildly popular, right? Remind us a little bit, the premise of the movie and how popular it was, and then we can talk about why that was such a surprise.
Matt Olien
Yeah, I mean, Chadwick Boseman, you know, this is his, this is the movie about Black Panther. He's not part of the Avengers. This is the standalone movie.
And Greg can touch on this, that when it was being made with a largely black cast, largely black production crew, there were trolls out there who were like, this isn't going to work. You know, Thor's not in it. Captain America's not in it.
And so, and it did work. It was phenomenally successful. So it's a huge, I think it's a huge touchstone moment for the director, Ryan Coogler, and the late Chadwick Boseman and everybody who was in it.
And it, you know, is up for best picture and wins Oscars. So I think it's a huge moment. And I know Zeapoe and Greg agree with that.
Zeapoe Matalda
Oh yes, most definitely.
Ashley Thornberg
Yeah. You know, I'm almost thinking, for me, it was almost a little like Barbie. People were all dressed up and it was like Barbie.
Were there moments like that for Black Panther?
Zeapoe Matalda
Absolutely. I mean, it was viral. It was people going to the theater and, you know, carrying djembes and, you know, wearing daishikis.
And they were, and dressing up, maybe some of them identified more with like the Black Panther movement. Some people were dressed, you know, head to toe and all black, you know, and just representing, you know, their, yeah, their background, their perspective. So it was, what I felt was like a cultural movement.
I saw it twice in the same weekend with different groups of people. And it was just, it was like, I think that was the first time I went to the theater and had that moment where, you know, people talk about when they first saw, you know, like in the golden age, when they would go and see a movie and see like an orchestra playing or something on stage. You know, that moment where you have just like that real surreal, like, you know, experience.
That's how I felt watching it. We were, people were cheering, clapping in the theater. It was gorgeous, it was beautiful.
Dr. Gregory Carlson
As a, you know, cultural artifact too, we would say that a movie like Black Panther crosses the $1.3 billion box office threshold. And so it's the sort of, the muscles of its ability to be marketed to all kinds of audiences can be seen through action figures, T-shirts, you know, the corresponding record albums and all that kind of thing. And I think that's a positive takeaway from something so magnetically depicted through all the performers, but especially through Bozeman's lead performance as T'Challa and his untimely death, I think cut short what might have been.
And, you know, not just in Black Panther, but, you know, his outsized talent and Kugler's outsized talent. I remember seeing Fruitvale Station at the Fargo Theater and being utterly captivated by this work and thinking there's a, we have to watch what this person is going to do next.
Ashley Thornberg
I want to talk about the movie Moonlight. Let's talk about the cultural touchstone moments of that film, because it did end up winning an Oscar.
Dr. Gregory Carlson
Yeah, I think Matt should start with the, you know, the sort of chaos that ensued the night it actually received Best Picture, because that has since become part of the conversation related to how its legacy has been received.
Matt Olien
Right, so Warren Beatty and Faye Dunaway come out to present Best Picture because it's the 50th anniversary of Bonnie and Clyde, a movie we've all, you know, grown up with. And I guess Beatty was handed the wrong envelope and they initially say La La Land wins and the La La Land people come up and Damien Giselle had already got Best Director for La La Land. And then finally, about a minute later, no, no, no, Moonlight wins and then Barry Jenkins comes up.
So it was, I like that Moonlight and La La Land kind of split the Picture Director, but basically a huge touchstone moment because this film wins Best Picture with, it's a film about the black experience for sure. And I love the film. I think it still holds up really well.
But interestingly enough, Zeapoe, you had a slightly different reaction.
Ashley Thornberg
Yeah, it's interesting to hear a black man say a film about the black experience.
Matt Olien
And you weren't as wild about Moonlight.
Zeapoe Matalda
Yes, so around the time, especially like when Moonlight was released, I heard so many good things about the film and just the level of, you know, the performance quality, you know, actress Janelle Monae and her portrayal and everyone in the film just, you know, having such excellent abilities and performances. And I personally, you know, I supported absolutely the entire film idea, the process, everything that they, you know, went through to create that film. I thought it was absolutely amazing.
What I drew, what I kind of stepped away from was just the story. I think for me, I just didn't, it didn't resonate with me in a way that I felt like I wanted to necessarily embrace. I just, it made me very sad.
And I mean, my character is just not necessarily like, I'm not somebody that tends to, you know, digest certain things well. And it was a little triggering for me. I think just having known, you know, people who've experienced things, maybe that might've been similar, or even, you know, just, you know, my own struggles in my own life.
I don't know, it just, it wasn't necessarily something that I wanted to necessarily watch. But absolutely, you know, I, again, credit, credit, credit to everybody in the cast, to everybody who worked on that production. It was, you know, it was beautiful to see them win the Oscar.
And absolutely, it was actually crazy to see how it all unfolded with the misunderstanding. But yeah, I definitely vouch for everything that you guys feel about the film, for sure.
Dr. Gregory Carlson
Yeah, the story that Jenkins is trying to tell here is, when I wrote about the film, I said it was, it lived at the intersection of love and violence. And, you know, reading some of the other essays that had come out at the time, trying to unpack the various characters in the film. Mahershala Ali just took my breath away.
And Naomi Harris is so good as the mother. And Naomi Harris is incredible in the film too. And, you know, of course, the kind of now iconic image of Mahershala Ali's character cradling Little in the ocean is just, it spoke, I had not seen something like that.
And so that's what spoke to me, one of the things that spoke to me about Moonlight.
Ashley Thornberg
We're coming up on the Oscars, Matt. Not too long ago, there's been a Oscars so white hashtag. There sure was.
How are we doing?
Matt Olien
Well, Jeffrey Wright and Coleman Domingo are both nominated for Best Actor this year. So that's great. I think Divine Joy Randolph's gonna win the Supporting Actress Oscar.
Greg and Zeapoe are nodding for The Holdovers, one of my favorite movies of the year. Danielle Brooks, Color Purple, Supporting Actress nominee. Am I missing some here, Greg?
Maybe a couple more.
Dr. Gregory Carlson
The performance categories, I think. For the performance categories.
Matt Olien
But certainly it's getting better. And we've seen a lot of performers win Academy Awards, African American performers winning Academy Awards in the last 40 years. You know, up until 1982, it was Hattie McDaniel, Sidney Poitier, and Louis Gossett Jr. And then Denzel comes along, Morgan Freeman. I feel like that explosion happens a little bit with them. And we start to get far more representation. But yeah, there was definitely a year or two in there where all of a sudden it was like all 20 of the acting performers were white.
And that, you know, I think the Academy has tried to address this, Greg. With more diversity in the voting members. They really got after that.
And I think that we've seen some positive things from that.
Dr. Gregory Carlson
Yeah, I would just add in, since we were doing it, just fact checking, seven of the 20 performance nominations are done by people of color this year. Lily Gladstone. Lily Gladstone, and we didn't mention America Ferrara.
Matt Olien
Yes, yes.
Dr. Gregory Carlson
But these articles are being, this coverage happens at Deadline, it happens at Variety, it happens at The Hollywood Reporter. So as Matt's pointing out, by shining a light on the need for representation and greater diversity, these incremental steps have started to happen, even though it's probably too slow for many people.
Ashley Thornberg
Zeapoe, I wanna talk to you about the theme of Black History Month being Africans in the arts. And then we also have this thing called Black Joy and Black Beauty. And one of the places that I most had to prominently check my racism was in reading a book by an indigenous author.
And she had written an essay about Thanksgiving, and it was very joy filled. And I remember thinking, shouldn't she not like Thanksgiving? You know, right?
Shouldn't she not be allowed to have the full human experience here? You know, here I am, well-meaning white person, just supposed to be sad about the past. So talk about this idea of, let's celebrate joy for the sake of joy.
Zeapoe Matalda
Yeah, that's actually an amazing question. Yes, I've had definitely in my own experience, having friends, you know, be very critical of someone posting on social media, happy Thanksgiving. You know, or, you know, even if we're not talking about Thanksgiving, just, you know, as a Native American person, you know, are you allowed to enjoy something that, again, was historically connected to the decimation of an entire people?
I feel as if, you know, we tend to want to live in a space where we're always fact-checking, fact-checking, fact-checking, and that's great. But at the same time, I do think there's room for people to be able to indulge in, you know, joy, positivity, and really have, you know, a broad, you know, perspective of who they are and be able to be dynamic. And, you know, it's just, it's difficult to kind of be boxed and need to be, you know, the expert or need to be, you know, the, you know, politically correct, you know, even as a person of color, having to always be politically correct.
I think there's, you know, there's a, it leans itself towards the woke movement, I think. I think there's this thing where, you know, especially for millennials, where wokeism has become, you know, this, our movement, our thing, you know? And it's like, there, for me, for a movement, I think there needs to be, you know, there needs to be clear goals.
There needs to be clear, there needs to be just like, you know, direction, there needs to be moderation, there needs to be, you know, everything in moderation is my perspective. So I think that, you know, we need to just maybe soften our approach to, you know, our everyday, you know, lives in terms of like celebrating a holiday, you know, as opposed to like, you know, trying to, I guess, put it on, you know, blast and make everybody have to adhere to, you know, being correct, I don't know. It's tough, but I think there's room, you know, there's room for people to just be people and just be able to enjoy something, so, yeah.
Ashley Thornberg
Greg, how do you talk to your students about diversity when you're teaching?
Dr. Gregory Carlson
Sure, that's, you know, as higher education from coast to coast has, you know, taken, we'll say, steps forward with related to what are often referred to as DEI or diversity, equity, and inclusion measures, and then received pushback politically from, you know, people who have, you know, used legislative measures to try to prevent what some people would call the teaching of history, just factual, you know, fact-based history itself. You know, we saw the outrageous case in Florida within the last month of banning thesaurus and dictionary tools for students to use because certain words might be perceived as, you know, leaning in one particular political direction too much. So I, you know, I have, we talked about Spike Lee earlier.
I had an opportunity to teach an honors level class on Spike Lee, and I've seen all of his films. I'm not a person of color, so I questioned whether that was an appropriate space for me to work. And so I did spend a fair amount of time with the students at the beginning of the semester addressing that very question, is how do we work through seeing films that represent different aspects of our, you know, of our history and ourselves that may or may not align with our own demographics?
And so I think it's, you know, it's important to try to do some perspective taking, you know, to try to, you know, imagine, if, not to imagine yourself as, you know, necessarily in the shoes of the character, although I think in a good narrative film, you are able to identify with people that you would not necessarily think of identifying with outside of the realm of great fiction.
Ashley Thornberg
Zeapoe, how do you find making films in this area? How has the film community, how's the support for it? Can you get funding?
Zeapoe Matalda
Yeah, so it's a challenge. Our biggest hurdle at this time during our current production of Pretty, the musical, is just getting a diverse cast. And even whether it's film or theater, you know, there's this conversation happening, you know, where we want to be able to encourage people, you know, of diverse backgrounds to apply for something or to audition for something.
But at the same time, you want to make sure you're not necessarily, like, you know, just throwing it out there, like, hey, we need this description that looks like this. You know, you want to give people some room to just be human, I think. But at the same time, acknowledge that we do have less, I guess, diversity in this area.
So I think that's our biggest struggle. Aside from that, funding-wise, we're looking into grants. We are working towards the Minnesota Arts Experiences Grant.
Also, there was a recent controversy about a grant that the North Dakota, I think, some council or something gave a film grant for producers in North Dakota, and there was a huge controversy because it went to one production studio. It was, like, $600,000 or something.
Matt Olien
I don't have all the details on that, but- Well, I think others weren't given enough time to apply. Wasn't that it?
Zeapoe Matalda
I think it was something like that, yeah. Yeah, I felt like that, you know, those are things where, again, I think the state, if you're gonna give funding to filmmakers, I think you've gotta promote it, because I heard about that the day that it was being awarded. It was not well-promoted, that is an understatement.
So, yeah, definitely. Those are some of the obstacles.
Ashley Thornberg
Well, we just have a couple minutes left here. So who are you watching for the future of black representation on film? And I'll let all of you answer.
Zeapoe Matalda
I would say I'm watching Jordan Peele, Ava DuVernay. I'm watching people who are really taking that whole narrative of the black experience and taking it in a whole new direction, giving us fantasy, giving us horror, giving us comedy, just giving us a breadth of perspective on that entire genre, and just challenging filmmaking approaches and incorporating different things into their films. Just the creativity that they're bringing to the table, especially with the movie, Get Out.
I think that was the most recent one where I really read about the process behind that film being made, and I just reveled in all of the little things that they did and to, I guess, make statements, even down to the color of the clothing that they were wearing. Something about, you know, I could get into it, but it was just very, very cool the way they approached that film, so that's what I'm looking at.
Matt Olien
Yeah, you kind of took the words right out of my mouth with Jordan Peele. I mean, he's a phenomenal filmmaker and screenwriter, and I'm excited to see where that goes. Actors like Daniel Kaluuya and Lakeith Stanfield as well, and actresses like Danielle Brooks, who was just on PBS's Finding Your Roots.
Henry Louis Gates, he was amazing on that. Yeah, just kind of seeing where this will take us and doing all genres. You know, we were talking about American fiction.
There's not a black genre. I mean, Jordan Peele is a filmmaker, right, and Coogler's a filmmaker, and all kinds of genres can be covered by that. You're not pigeonholed, I think.
That's crucial, I think, now.
Dr. Gregory Carlson
Yes, I echo what my two fellow panelists have shared. I love watching the dynamic and exciting work of up-and-comers like Taylor Page, some of my favorite current performers who is gonna have a breakout role at some point and could very well be a future Oscar nominee. I love Tessa Thompson.
In the nonfiction space, I really have been drawn to W. Kamau Bell's work. We need to talk about Cosby.
They premiered a few of the episodes of it at Sundance a couple years ago, and it left me speechless. As a person who had grown up watching the Cosby show, Bell is able to do something really special in his filmmaking, and that is to not discard the nostalgia and the importance that the art might have had, even if the artist, in this case, turned out to be monstrous. Bell's latest film is called Growing Up Mixed, and it's a documentary that starts with his own family, and I would highly recommend it.