Today's Segments
Levi Bachmeier: A New Vision for North Dakota’s K-12 Schools
ChatGPT said:North Dakota’s newly appointed superintendent of public instruction, Levi Bachmeier, outlines his priorities for K-12 education — including teacher retention, support for rural schools, universal free lunch, school funding, vouchers, and special education.
Lost in Translation: ND’s Shortage of Sign Language Interpreters
Reporter Michael Achterling of the North Dakota Monitor examines the severe shortage of certified ASL interpreters across North Dakota — a crisis affecting hospitals, courts, and classrooms, leaving many deaf residents struggling to be heard and understood.
Transcript of interview with Michael Achterling:
Main Street
Today we're looking at a challenge many of us might not think about, the shortage of American Sign Language interpreters in North Dakota. For deaf and hard of hearing North Dakotans, not having an interpreter readily available can be a major barrier, whether it's a medical emergency, or in a courtroom, or even at community events.
Our guest is the reporter who recently explored this issue in depth. Michael Achterling is a reporter for the Bismarck-based North Dakota Monitor, it's a non-profit news outlet focused on state news. He's previously worked as a local editor and reporter in Minnesota.
Michael wrote today's Monitor story titled, Lack of Sign Language Interpreters in North Dakota is a Major Barrier, and he joins us now to talk about what he found. Michael, welcome to Main Street.
Michael Achterling, North Dakota Monitorr
Craig, thank you so much for having me and for highlighting our reporter.
Main Street
Yeah, it's a very interesting article. I told you off mic I've seen interpreters at planned events, things like a news conference, for example. I never, ever thought about the situation that you begin your story with, with Tammy Derrick at a Bismarck hospital where video sign language wasn't working properly and she needed an interpreter.
Let's start right there. Can you tell us what happened in that situation and why it's a telling example of the shortage?
Michael Achterling, North Dakota Monitor
Well, I think it is telling because, you know, Tammy is a member of the deaf community and something completely, it could happen to anyone. One of her kids had a medical emergency and needed to go to the hospital and get to the hospital and trying to explain some things. And obviously Tammy is deaf and she needed a video remote, remote video assistance for the interpreting.
So they tried to bring it up on the iPad, on the device, it wasn't working. They kept losing the service. It kept dropping out.
And then they need to start the whole thing over again. And it was just becoming more and more of a hassle. And so Tammy's like, I would really like an ASL interpreter to be present to translate so I can accurately understand what's happening to my son and what's happening with his medical condition and how to remedy it.
Main Street
So these could be life and death information that a parent needs in real time and access to this service just sounds to me like it's critical.
Michael Achterling, North Dakota Monitor
It is critical. And especially when you're talking about life and death, like you're saying, and, and also complex issues. I mean, a lot of us don't know, aren't very versed in medical terminology and medical like procedures and stuff like that.
The same could be said for, for different things involving lawyers or court proceedings. I mean, it takes like a specialized person to do those things. I mean, you go to school for a lot of years to become a lawyer or a doctor, but you know, you're going to need equally, equally versed interpreters to interpret those complex discussions so you can understand them and you can have equal access, which is provided under the Americans with Disabilities Act.
Main Street
Tell us Michael, how severe is the shortage of ASL interpreters in North Dakota? I was, I was amazed at the stats.
Michael Achterling, North Dakota Monitor
Right. And you know, that, that was something, it was brought up in a, in a, a committee discussion, the Human Resource or Human Services Committee, North Dakota legislature is going to be looking into studying barriers that members of the deaf community and hard of hearing community are faced with. And one of the North Dakota lawmakers, Representative Kathy Freilich, who from Devil's Lake, she works as an outreach advocate for an outreach specialist for the school for the deaf.
And she's also hard of hearing herself. She wears hearing aids. And so she got up and provided testimony, kind of laying out the situation that members of the deaf and hard of hearing community are faced with.
And one of the things that just jumped out of her testimony, I mean, it's just like in North Dakota, we only have about 15 nationally certified interpreters that can interpret American sign language. I'm like, well, that doesn't sound like very many. And then, you know, she goes on, she's like, and if you compare us to Minnesota, well, Minnesota has over 500 and they do.
And you start thinking about, okay, 15 interpreters for a very wide state like North Dakota is such a rural area where these interpreters located. How are people accessing these services? And so we decided to dig in a little bit deeper on, you know, what happens in the interpreting field for ASL.
And, you know, some of these interpreters do need to travel quite a ways, as you can imagine, to get to some of these events and different meetings and trainings and such. It's almost like if you live in Western North Dakota, it's tough. Yes, it is.
I mean, yeah, west of the highway, Highway 83, yeah, there are no certified interpreters that live in Watford City and in Williston and Dickinson or Medora. I mean, the two ASL interpreters I was speaking with are located in the Bismarck area, and they both said that they've traveled out to Medora to interpret the Medora musical. And so, you know, that's a couple hours in the car and, you know, there and back.
And, you know, so and with, you know, not having very many interpreters to begin with, it also limits us because they're doing something all day that requires a lot of traveling and that kind of reduces the number for other services if people are seeking those at that time.
Main Street
I want to put myself in your shoes. Help me understand what it was like writing this story with the assistance of an interpreter.
Michael Achterling, North Dakota Monitor
Oh, my gosh. So, Craig, I've never really encountered members of the deaf community or hard of hearing community in my reporting before. And so organizing a meeting with a couple ASL interpreters, that took some finagling.
We had to make sure that the interpreters were available because they both work in the public school system in the Bismarck area. And so one had to make sure they had a sub that could fill in for them. Another came on their free period.
And so just organizing that interview was a little bit difficult. But then we got to the we did the interview at the Bismarck Public Library in one of their meeting rooms. And, you know, we go up to the desk is like, oh, yeah, we'll probably need about a half hour.
And then, you know, one of the interpreters stopped. He's like, no, why don't you give us 90 minutes? I'm like, OK.
And to tell you the truth, we used all of it because it just takes longer. It takes longer for someone who speaks to go to the interpreter and then through American Sign Language to the deaf or hard of hearing person and then back. It just takes long.
But it is also shorter than if we were to type everything out via email. If I wanted to do an interview just with text, I mean, gosh, it would take so long just to type out all the questions and have them type up the responses. So, I mean, having American Sign Language interpreters is critical, especially if you want to convey information quickly.
And in those situations, like we were saying, with a medical a medical situation, vital that that gets interpreted quickly.
Main Street
Give me a sense of what their job is like. And I ask it from the perspective of the folks who bought our home in Cheyenne before we moved to North Dakota. She was an interpreter and I watch her work.
It's demanding. It's demanding. And I can't imagine having to do that for eight hours a day or longer.
It's just tough. Put me in their shoes.
Michael Achterling, North Dakota Monitor
Oh, you know, I don't think I could accurately because I'm not versed in American Sign Language. But I mean, you're you're taking in your words, your conversation and interpreting them. And then the other person is signing back and you have to then relay that back to spoken English.
It's it's exhausting for the brain to to do that a little bit. And even the interpreters I was speaking to, they said that, you know, they do sometimes need to plan breaks for their brain just to kind of provide some relief. So it's not so, you know, go, go, go all the time.
Main Street
Michael, how widespread is the problem? How many folks are deaf or hard of hearing to the extent that this is something they need?
Michael Achterling, North Dakota Monitor
Well, it's difficult to calculate, actually, talking with the people I did for the story. So in 2021, the National Deaf Center estimated that about three point six percent of the population of the United States considers themselves deaf or hard of hearing. Now that that may not sound like much, but it does equate to, you know, more than more than a million people.
So, you know, and also some of the subjects I was talking to in higher ed, at the School for the Deaf, they'll also point out that North Dakota is a very as a high propensity of military veterans and also farmers and ranchers that may have been operating those big tractors and stuff without cabs, you know, and they lose a large portion of their hearing and can become very hard of hearing later on in life. And so it is kind of an unknown and also a very transient population.
They're moving in and out of state just like the rest of us are for jobs, for family, for for different reasons. And so it is kind of hard to pin down how many deaf people, how big that community is. But it there does seem to be larger portions of the deaf community in North Dakota in Devil's Lake where they have the School for the Deaf.
So people in Devil's Lake would probably more more accustomed to seeing people using American Sign Language out in the community and also Fargo as well. They're a pretty big deaf community in Fargo.
Main Street
Enjoying my conversation with Michael Ochterling, he works for the North Dakota Monitor where he is a reporter and his story broke today titled Lack of Sign Language Interpreters in North Dakota, a Major Barrier. And of course, you can read that online at the North Dakota Monitor's website. Michael, it seems to me that one of the root problems here is lack of training available in the state.
For example, you can't go to any university or any college in North Dakota and become an ASL interpreter.
Michael Achterling, North Dakota Monitor
That's very true. It's there are no four year degree programs for an American Sign Language major.
Main Street
That surprises me.
Michael Achterling, North Dakota Monitor
We did have some two year programs, but they were discontinued about five years ago. Lake Region, Lake Region State College, Minot State University had a partnership for a four year degree during that time. You get your two year interpreting degree from Lake Region College and then you finish up at Minot State with some of the other higher level undergrad classes and basic interpreting history and some other things.
But it wasn't very highly enrolled. And so, you know, when you have classes like that and you can't meet the bottom line, you know, those tend to be those courses and those programs that may be discontinued. And in this case, they ended up discontinuing that kind of partnership that they had and went to a one year certification program.
So you can still take American Sign Language in the state, but it's only a one year certificate and some offshoot courses.
Main Street
A term you mentioned in your article was low incidence. It's a low incidence disability. What do you mean by that?
Michael Achterling, North Dakota Monitor
Yeah. And trying to explain what a low incidence disability is, was challenging. It basically means, and I'll put this in terms of special education.
We look at special education programs around the state. You know, you have intellectual disabilities, you have speech disabilities, some of the physical disabilities that require specialized education. Deafness is much lower.
There are much fewer instances of that. And so when there's much fewer instances of something, it struggles to get the resources and different things necessary to kind of, you know, promote that.
Main Street
So is that one of the reasons the legislature is looking at it?
Michael Achterling, North Dakota Monitor
Oh, I believe so. I think there's a lot of reasons they're looking at it, but definitely one of the reasons is, I mean, there's really not a clear cut path in the state to, if I said right now, I want to be a American Sign Language, a nationally certified American Sign Language interpreter, it would be difficult for me. I could maybe take the certification course.
I could do some follow on stuff, but I wouldn't be able to get a four year degree in American Sign Language to be a nationally certified interpreter. You don't need to necessarily have an ASL four year degree to be a nationally certified interpreter. You could do a two year program and then some practical experience and kind of build up your experience hours like that to equate to it.
But again, that can take time. So it's not there's not really a clear cut path for that national certification, which is required by the state of North Dakota. You need to be a nationally certified ASL interpreter to be a conduct professional services freelance or whatever.
When we talk about interpreting in schools, K-12 schools, it's a little bit more relaxed to have a pair of professionals conduct some sign language and stuff like that. But even that it's not that national certification level where you're going to go to government meetings or you're going to go to the hospital and work on call at the hospital and be available for that. You're not allowed to do that unless you have that nationally certified recognition.
Same with court proceedings. There's only about eight, I think, in the state of North Dakota that are licensed to interpret court proceedings. And one instance that one of the interpreters told me about, you know, they end up the judges end up working around the interpreter schedule because they know that they're very, very busy.
And so if they need those sign language services, they'll work around the interpreter schedule, not the schedule of the court as it normally would.
Main Street
You talk about technology in the article, and it was mentioned during the legislative hearing on September 4th that you've also referenced. Where are we at with tech in becoming what we mentioned it right at the top of our discussion, right? The Bismarck Hospital was hoping that tech would fill the gap there.
All of a sudden it didn't work. So where are we at?
Michael Achterling, North Dakota Monitor
Well, in many ways, it's taken a big step forward. I mean, there are, you know, speech to text apps on everybody's phone. There's the video remote services that we were talking about earlier with connecting to a service, maybe not even in your state that will connect you with a sign language interpreter they can communicate through through the device.
But again, it's not like having a live person there that can, you know, express emotion and you can read nonverbals and it much easier to sign back and get your questions answered if you are a deaf person or member of the hard of hearing community.
Main Street
Yeah, that was my thinking with tech is, OK, I can record our conversation and get everything you said. How do I as maybe a deaf person speak back to you using tech without without using ASL?
Michael Achterling, North Dakota Monitor
Yeah, it's difficult. And it's it's why I think some people do tend to want those professional interpreters there to kind of facilitate that communication, especially in serious matters.
Main Street
So we know now that the legislature has taken notice of the issue. You talk about Representative Fralick's testimony, the work of the School of the Deaf. Where do we go from here?
Michael Achterling, North Dakota Monitor
Well, I think it's up in the air. Talking to the Lake Region State College, the vice president of academic and student affairs, you know, conversations with him. They do want they do see the need to expand the ASL program back into a two year program.
But he was telling me first, really, it should start at the high school level with some dual credit options locally for for kids in the Devils Lake area. I mean, because you need to build that pipeline. You build that pipeline from high school and then into the college program that can maybe feed into it.
And so maybe that is a way forward. Obviously, education on educating people on the barriers is another thing. But, you know, video assisted technology is going to play a role here because we are a very rural state in North Dakota and not everybody, like we were saying, west of Highway 83.
I mean, unless you book a interpreter in advance for, you know, if you're a business or a nonprofit or hospital or if it's an event or something like that, I mean, you might be relying on some of those video services to conduct that that equal opportunity communicating effectively with the Americans with disabilities that covers.
Main Street
I want to circle back to the start of our conversation. People have now suggested that employees in various professions really need to learn sign language. Nurses, police, teachers go down the list.
You could add pastors and there's more and more. What are those conversations like and how have those ideas now been floated to maybe assist the deaf community in these technical professions, perhaps?
Michael Achterling, North Dakota Monitor
Well, that's also another another one of the solutions talking with the superintendent for the School for the Deaf. I mean, she says, you know, if we can't get nationally certified interpreters, we just need more people to learn sign language. And so you can be a nurse, you can be a doctor.
And as long as you know sign language, you know, it's something and something is better than nothing. I mean, it's not quite to the equal access that's demanded under the ADA, but, you know, it is something. And also it gets the foot in the door and maybe you realize you like using American sign language and you want to take it further.
It seems like it's a very in-demand career in this state. It could be. Talking to the interpreters for my story, you know, they say every week is different.
Super busy, book to the walls. Some weeks and some weeks it's a little it's a little bit less, but no week is ever the same. So, you know, it is an in-demand profession.
I'm just not sure anybody really has an understanding about how we get more interpreters in this state.
Main Street
Michael, in the context of communication, what does it mean to communicate effectively with someone who is hard of hearing or deaf?
Michael Achterling, North Dakota Monitor
Well, that's that's the question right there. The Americans with Disabilities Act that was signed in 1990, President George H.W. Bush. You know, it requires state and local governments, businesses and nonprofits to communicate effectively with people with communication disabilities.
Now, the Department of Justice, Civil Rights Division, they have a nice explainer on their website about what it means to communicate effectively. Now, it can be different in different instances. So let's say you're in a retail store or a restaurant.
Those things may not require an interpreter. I mean, you can get by with writing notes, speech to text, maybe even as simple as pointing to something on the menu or maybe even writing it out. Where it becomes a challenge is those state and federal government meetings, medical appointments, those complex court proceedings.
The Civil Rights Division says an ASL interpreter, quote, generally will be needed in those instances to communicate effectively. And I believe how Ms. Freilich describes it in her testimony in September is, you know, if a person a person who can hear walks into a room and get services, it needs to be the exact same if a deaf person or hard of hearing person walks in and wants the same services or the same.
Main Street
My guest is Michael Achterling. Thank you so much for sharing your insights with us, Michael. It's been an interesting discussion for me.
And of course, we're talking about his reporting at the North Dakota Monitor. You can read about the shortage of sign language interpreters that North Dakota faces and the challenges it creates right now by reading Michael's story in the North Dakota Monitor. Michael, thank you so much for joining us.
Craig, thank you so much for having me.