AILSA CHANG, HOST:
We turn now to New York City where Venezuela's ousted former president, Nicolás Maduro, was back in federal court today. This was Maduro's second court appearance since he and his wife were captured in a U.S. military raid in January and brought to the U.S. to face criminal charges. NPR justice correspondent Ryan Lucas was at the courthouse and joins us now. Hi, Ryan.
RYAN LUCAS, BYLINE: Hi there.
CHANG: So, I mean, it almost feels like a lifetime ago - right? - like, when the U.S. grabbed Maduro and his wife in that raid in Caracas. What was it like today at the courthouse?
LUCAS: Well, you're absolutely right. It does seem like it was ages ago, and obviously, that's in large part because so much else has happened elsewhere in the world since January.
CHANG: Yeah.
LUCAS: But this case is still a big deal. There's still a lot of interest in it. When I got to the courthouse in Lower Manhattan earlier this morning, there was a group of protesters across the street voicing support for Maduro. The group was waving Venezuelan flags. Some had placards that read free President Maduro. Here's a bit of what the crowd sounded like.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
UNIDENTIFIED PROTESTER: (Chanting) Hands off...
UNIDENTIFIED PROTESTERS: (Chanting) Venezuela.
UNIDENTIFIED PROTESTER: (Chanting) Hands off...
UNIDENTIFIED PROTESTERS: (Chanting) Venezuela.
UNIDENTIFIED PROTESTER: (Chanting) No war...
UNIDENTIFIED PROTESTERS: (Chanting) In Venezuela.
LUCAS: There was also a huge line at the courthouse to get into this hearing - both journalists, members of the public. Maduro and his wife, Cilia Flores, faced narco-terrorism and other charges. They were both in the courtroom today, both dressed in beige prison outfits, and they both wore headphones to listen to the proceedings via a translator.
CHANG: OK. So what specifically was the focus of today's hearing?
LUCAS: So today's hearing revolved around a dispute over how Maduro can pay his legal fees. Maduro's attorney is Barry Pollack, and he says the Maduros can afford to pay on their own. But under Venezuelan law, the government of Venezuela pays the legal expenses of the president and the first lady, and Venezuela's current government says it will indeed do so here. But remember, Venezuela is under U.S. sanctions, so the U.S. government would need to issue a license to allow the government in Caracas to pay the Maduro's attorneys and legal fees.
CHANG: Ah.
LUCAS: Now, Pollack says the U.S. government isn't allowing that. He says it is blocking that from happening. And by doing so, he says the U.S. government is interfering with Maduro's Sixth Amendment right to choose his own attorney. And so they are asking the judge to dismiss this case or to allow Pollack to withdraw as Maduro's lawyer.
CHANG: Well, what about the U.S. government? Like, what do prosecutors say about that argument?
LUCAS: Well, the Justice Department rejects those arguments. Assistant U.S. Attorney Kyle Wirshba said at the hearing that the U.S. sanctions that are preventing the Venezuelan government from paying the legal fees are justified. He said they are based on national security and foreign policy interests. Some of them date back to the Obama administration. Prosecutors also argue that the U.S. hasn't recognized Maduro as Venezuela's legitimate president for years, and so Maduro, they say, should have no expectation that Venezuela would be able to pay his legal fees. And they've also said that, you know, the court could appoint an attorney to take over Maduro's defense if Maduro himself can't pay.
CHANG: This dispute over attorneys' fees is actually so fascinating. Did you get any sense of which way the judge was leaning on this issue?
LUCAS: So the judge handling this case is Alvin Hellerstein. He did not rule on this issue today from the bench. He did not rule.
CHANG: OK.
LUCAS: But he certainly pressed the government. Hellerstein said, things have changed in Venezuela, obviously, since Maduro was captured in January. The U.S. has relaxed sanctions on the country. Maduro and Flores, obviously, are both now in New York. Hellerstein said they don't present a national security threat anymore, and he seemed quite concerned about their constitutional right to counsel, which he described as basically paramount at this point.
And he also noted that putting together a defense for a case like this is going to be extremely expensive. It will involve travel to Venezuela, doing interviews there. Putting that on the system of court-appointed attorneys, he said, would be a huge drain on resources. But he also said, quite bluntly, he's not going to dismiss this case. Hellerstein noted several times at today's hearing, including actually in his final comment of the day, that this is a unique case. So we will see, as this case moves forward, how he ends up resolving this thorny dispute.
CHANG: Unique being an understatement. That is NPR's Ryan Lucas in New York. Thank you, Ryan.
LUCAS: Thank you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by an NPR contractor. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of NPR’s programming is the audio record.
