Just over fifteen years ago, North Dakota’s congressional delegation looked very different than it does today. Senators Byron Dorgan and Kent Conrad, along Representative Earl Pomeroy, formed the unlikely trio of Democrats from a state that has long leaned Republican — and is now firmly GOP-dominant.
In this wide-ranging conversation with Prairie Public's Erik Deatherage, Byron Dorgan — the former Senator and bestselling author — talks about the spirit of bipartisanship that's been lost in today's hyper-partisan political environment, the small town North Dakota values that served him well in Congress and the two tragedies that shaped his political life.
Listen to the full conversation above, and find the transcript below.
Transcript
Erik Deatherage, Host
You are listening to Main Street on Prairie Public. I'm Erik Deatherage. Our guest today, it's fair to say, is one of North Dakota's most accomplished politicians. He was elected U.S. Senator three times and served six terms in the U.S. House of Representatives and is an accomplished, best-selling author. Plus, he's got an airport terminal named after him, for goodness sake. Senator Byron Dorgan, welcome back to Prairie Public's airwaves.
Former Senator Byron Dorgan
Well, thank you very much. It's good to be with you.
Host
Well, we are talking to you on the occasion of Primary Election Day here in North Dakota. Is there anything that you miss about the ritual of running for office here in North Dakota? Like, what was your routine on Election Day?
Dorgan
On Election Day, well, at that point, the travel is pretty well done. You've done a lot of lunches and banquets in a lot of small towns and big towns. And at that point, you sort of exhale a little bit and kind of wait and see what the vote looks like.
The old Claude Pepper, one of the oldest members of the U.S. House from Florida, he used to describe this act of voting as the miracle in the Constitution. It's when the American people grab the steering wheel. And when they grab the steering wheel by casting their vote, they decide what's the direction of the country? Who leads our country? And it's such a great, important day to be able to get out and vote. I hope everyone decides to get out and cast their ballot.
Host
Yeah, Americans are taking the wheel today and will in November, of course, as well. And there's so much national debate and divide over our elections today and election integrity. How do you see America's most sacred ritual, voting and the right to it, surviving this moment and surviving what some see as threats to it?
Dorgan
Well, there is a threat to this country and a number of ways. I won't go through all of them, but we have three branches of government. And there's a lot going on in the country that is enormously troublesome to me and I think to a lot of people.
But we'll get through it. And the American people just need to cast their vote and decide which direction they want America to move. This is a very important election now, North Dakota and around the country, when we have the opportunity to cast that ballot.
Host
Well, another big occasion, another sacred occasion, is less than a month away in Medora, North Dakota, of course, around the country, too. But here in North Dakota, we're celebrating America's 250th birthday with the opening of the Theodore Roosevelt Presidential Library. We're hearing that maybe some A-list guests will be there, perhaps people with the title of President.
What about your presence? Are you planning on heading out there and what do you think of this political moment in the national spotlight for North Dakota?
Dorgan
Well, I think it's a big, big deal. I will not be there, unfortunately, but I will get there at some point soon. See what has been done.
It's really interesting, the people that began thinking about this came to me when I was a U.S. senator and they said, any chance that you could provide some funding, and I did that under the Appropriations Committee. I said, yeah, I'll do it, some funding to digitize the Roosevelt records that existed in the Library of Congress. And digitalizing those records then allowed them to be, at this point, in Dickinson, North Dakota and now over to the Roosevelt Library.
This goes back some long way. They've had a long, lengthy dream about doing this. Teddy Roosevelt came to North Dakota and lived in North Dakota for a period of time. I think everybody understands that on a certain day of the year, his wife and his mother died in the same home in New York City, and on that day, he drew a big X in his calendar, wondering whether he would make it through all of these times, and he decided to go out to North Dakota, and he did. He moved to North Dakota and became a rancher.
Host
And he always credits North Dakota as being instrumental in him being a President of the United States. Now, I know that you have been moved by the plight of Native Americans, particularly Native children, so much so that you wrote a book, “The Girl in the Photograph: The True Story of a Native American Child Lost and Found in America,” about a child's heartbreaking story, which, for those that are not familiar, you read about this in a newspaper, and thus began an odyssey of trying to locate her and trace and document the systems that left her so vulnerable.
You did a lot of work on Indian affairs. You were chairman of a committee in Congress. You created a nonprofit to help Native Americans. There's even a sports facility in Belcourt named after you. How has this country reckoned with one of its gravest sins, kind of inarguably, the treatment of Native Americans, or has this country at all?
Dorgan
Well, we haven't done well at all. You know, there are two real significant stains on our history. One is slavery, and the other is how we treated those who were here first, Native Americans.
And, you know, some land has been stolen from them over time, the treaties have been ignored, so it's been a tough time, and it's one of the reasons I've cared a great deal about it. You know, when you see injustice, it seems to me you have to stand up and deal with that injustice and respond to it. And I know that all Native Americans, and I've worked with a good many of them, all of them across the country, care very much about trying to get this done and get it done the right way.
So we'll see. Much, much more should have been done and still can be done for Native Americans.
Host
Senator Byron Dorgan, we're talking to him from Washington, D.C. Today he joins us on the phone. Senator, you got into political life pretty young. In fact, you became, what, the youngest constitutional officer in North Dakota? But it was under a cloud of tragedy. Can you kind of take us back, for those who don't know that story?
Dorgan
It really was. You know, I left North Dakota to get a Master's degree and was working out of state, but I came back to North Dakota to visit a guy, or someone who asked to visit with me when I came back from my grandfather's funeral. I went up and talked to a fellow who had just won statewide election at age 38, a remarkable guy.
And he said, why don't you come back to North Dakota, to the state capitol and work with me? And I did. I was inspired by him and I moved back to work with him. And he, a year and a half after I moved back, this was a great tragedy, he took his own life in his office. In fact, I found him at 8:00 in the morning. And it was a very tragic thing.
And I, you know, he was a mentor of mine, a friend of mine. And so it took some while to get through that. The governor called me down about six weeks later. I was 26 years old. And the governor said, you know, I have watched you a lot. I think you have something significant for our state and for our country. I think you have the capability to do some important things. And I'm going to nominate you. I'm going to send you an appointment to fill that term.
So at age 26, I was state tax commissioner. And then I ran for that office. And again, and I ran for the House six times, ran for the Senate three times, and then I decided to retire.
And, you know, it was a very strange situation that sort of began with tragedy. But I got through all of that. And as a result of it, I felt enormously privileged to be able to serve in the Congress.
And let me just tell you, you know, coming from a high school senior class of, I think, nine students, to then sit for 18 years on the floor of the United States Senate in a desk that was my desk, it's quite a move from a town of 300 people, a desk in a high school there, to a desk in the United States Senate. I've never forgotten what, you know, how important it is and how privileged I have been. And can I just tell you a story about the desks very quickly?
Host
Yeah, yeah, I was going to ask you about that. I think I know where you're going. Go ahead, yes.
Dorgan
Well, when I left the Senate, you carve your name inside the desk drawer that you pull out. And so my name is in a desk drawer in the United States Senate, it says Senator Byron Dorgan. My first desk, you know, when I got it, I pulled out the drawer to see who had sat in that desk.
And it said, oh, Harry Truman sat in that desk. You know, the whole series of names, I said, oh my gosh, here I am from this tiny little town in North Dakota, and I'm sitting at Harry Truman's desk. And then I said, I saw Robert La Follette, the great populist from Wisconsin.
And, you know, the desk behind mine, two rows, was John F. Kennedy's desk, and then Robert F. Kennedy's desk, same desk, Ted Kennedy's desk.
Just remarkable to be sitting in that chamber. And, you know, I've never ever felt when I was there that this wasn't something very special and that I was very advantaged to be able to do it.
Host
Well, it's almost like you're filling in somebody's shoes that couldn't fulfill his career in politics in a way. It's almost like a tribute to him. Do you see it that way?
Dorgan
Well, yeah. Well, he was a remarkable guy. He was a guy that, he came from a town of 80 people in North Dakota, and then he graduated from Harvard Law School.
So just think of that, you know? And he came back at age 38, was elected statewide, and a remarkable person. I've always missed him, and I've always felt a great tragedy that he took his life.
Host
Well, it just all speaks to, you know, the opportunities that we have in the United States of America at 250 years old, that, you know, people could come from such humble beginnings and, you know, do something very significant with their lives.
Dorgan
And, you know, I mean, our country, we talk a lot about what's wrong, but, you know, our country is quite remarkable. We've spliced genes, we've split the atom, we've cured polio, we've cured smallpox, we learned how to fly and sent someone to the moon 66 years later. All the things that, this is a remarkable place.
And we tend, I think, too often to talk about what's wrong. It is important to understand what we need to fix, but it's also important to understand how terrific this great country is.
Host
Now, Senator Dorgan, you got out of politics in 2010 and some said at the time the writing may have been on the wall that now Senator John Hoeven was leading you in the polls, but you contended back then and some others agree that, yeah, you could have beaten him.
How would you have beaten him should you have chosen to run? And how can Democrats get back in the prominence today in North Dakota and, more importantly, to earn back voter trust?
Dorgan
I don't know. You know, I don't think those who bet against me were going to cast a very good bet because I was very successful both in the state capitol and also the U.S. House and the U.S. Senate over a long period of time. And, you know, I guess they could bet on someone else, but I don't think it'd be a particularly good bet.
But, you know, the fact is I had been in public service for a very long time and I wanted to do other things. I've written five books. I'm in the process of working on another book.
I went to teach, did some teaching at Georgetown University as a professor over there for five or six years. So, you know, I've just been doing a lot of other things which I wanted to do and was not able to do while I was in the Senate all those years. There are some people that felt, well, why would you in your 60s not run again for a re-election?
Well, because I was wanting to do other things and there are plenty of other things to do that are exciting and interesting. And so, I decided not to continue. But even having said that, I've never, ever thought that it wasn't just a spectacular opportunity for me and for our state.
Host
Well, today, Senator Dorgan, voters in North Dakota go to the polls, including in North Dakota's largest city, Fargo. And even though that's a non-partisan race for mayor here, Democratic State Senator Josh Boschee has a chance to win and some see him as a rising star in the party. Have you got your eye on any politicians or potential Democrats that could break through and perhaps earn statewide or maybe even national office from North Dakota in the future?
Dorgan
Well, he's terrific and I hope people have the opportunity to see that and evaluate that and make that vote. But this is like a clock, you know, one of these clocks where the pendulum swings back and forth. There was a time when Democrats controlled the state house, controlled the governorship for 12 years under William Guy and then eight years under Art Link.
And the fact is that things will change, but it takes some time and that pendulum swings back and forth. There is one party rule in North Dakota now, that's not good for our state. And my hope is that both political parties have the opportunity to have majorities in the future.
Things like drug pricing, being fair to family farmers, with respect to a wide range of cost increases they've been forcing, energy issues, the energy issues with respect to wind energy and so on, really important issues that aren't really being discussed very effectively in our state at this point. I hope that'll change.
Host
Yeah, certainly with energy, I think the pendulum has switched back to coal, fired plants, and I know you've been a champion of that and carbon capture, some of the things that Doug Burgum used to sort of tout, but now it just seems instead of all of the above, it's, you know, including wind and solar, it's just sort of weighted back to coal and fossil fuels.
Dorgan
I'm very surprised. I mean, look, North Dakota is producing over a million barrels of oil a day. I was supportive of opening up in North Dakota to get that accomplished, you know, but the fact is it's important for us to care about other things like wind energy and so on as well.
And, you know, I'm a bit surprised by the Interior Secretary and the change that he has apparently experienced in some of these things, but we'll see. Let me go back to the issue of drugs. This country still has not dealt with the effective price, the highest effective price for brand name drugs of any place in the world.
And I've worked on that and worked on it for the longest period of time. The drug industry has a great deal of money and they've pushed back and they've generally been successful. But, you know, I've taken a busload of North Dakotans to Canada where you could buy the same drug for a third of the price or a fourth of the price.
It's unbelievable. There are things like this issue still need to get done. We need to keep fighting to get them done at some point.
Host
No, I joked with you earlier that you were back in office when Democrats roamed the earth in North Dakota and far from prehistoric times or anything, but the ‘90s and early ‘00s seemed to me like a lifetime ago, at least in statewide politics. You, Senator Kent Conrad and Representative Earl Pomeroy all had Ds by your name. You mentioned one of the chambers in Bismarck was Democratic.
How did you achieve that trifecta? North Dakota has always been kind of a right-leaning, Republican voting state. How did you achieve that back in the day? It just seems almost implausible.
Dorgan
Well, first, let me tell you how outstanding Kent Conrad and Earl Pomeroy were. I mean, they're terrific public servants. So that's the first and most important thing.
But I think most North Dakotans would ask the question, do I know this person? Do I like this person? Do I trust this person?
If the answer to that is yes, they don't care so much what side you're on or what tribe you say you're a part of because I think most people know that someone who cares a great deal about our country is going to care much more about our country than they are about our political party. And so the three of us, I think for almost two decades, served exclusively North Dakota in Washington, D.C., in the U.S. House and the U.S. Senate. And I think North Dakotans, many North Dakotans will look back and think that was a pretty significant time with great opportunity.
But we'll see, as I said, the clock ticks and that pendulum swings back and forth and it'll come back once again.
Host
Well, it just seems like, you know, aside from the very North Dakota thing of going out and pressing the flesh, going to every town, shaking hands and getting people to know you and like you, there's a challenging media environment, both traditional and especially digital media that just would make it, I would think, hard if you're not the party in majority power to even crack that ceiling.
Dorgan
The thing that I find interesting is that I did town meetings all across North Dakota all the time in small towns and big towns. I mean, I just was all over doing town meetings. And almost no one who serves in the House and the Senate from North Dakota now is out doing town meetings.
Almost no one. And that's surprising because the way you find out how people feel about things is to go out and listen and have a visit with people. And town meetings have been critically important, at least in my service in North Dakota.
And I really hope that those who represent North Dakota in the Congress now will decide that they want to hold these town meetings and would begin getting out and holding three or four on a weekend.
Host
I think maybe they're afraid of the optics of getting booed. Could be part of it.
Dorgan
I don't know. I just don't know. But issues in the U.S. Senate in the last couple of days, the issues about a $1.8 billion fund to pay people that were weaponized, including people that were trying to beat up cops and break into the U.S. Capitol. I mean, people will ask about, how'd you vote on that? And so many others as well. Building a billionaire ballroom, tearing down the East Wing of the White House and building a billionaire ballroom that they said was going to be paid for privately.
It was never approved, of course, but it was going to be paid for privately. And then they tried to put a billion dollars in the appropriations for the ballroom. So there's so much that needs to be answered by people.
And I hope they'll get out there and hold town meetings and say, here's how I voted, and here's why I voted that way.
Host
So when you were in office, you often talked about the late Senator John McCain and your many works across the aisle, Senator Dorgan, in the hyper-partisanship times that we're in, where it seems to be only about winning and sticking it to the other party. But also during a time when voters demand that you work together, that Congress work together. These things are kind of coexisting at the same time.
Can they? And how does government function without turning into the gridlock?
Dorgan
Well, I miss John McCain a great deal. John was a really terrific American and a great Senator. And then suddenly, some while ago, somebody asked me a question about this.
And so I typed into YouTube, John McCain and Byron Dorgan, just the two names, and up popped about a 30-minute debate that John and I were having on, and John and I were on the same side, on drug pricing on the floor of the United States Senate. And it is fascinating. If anybody'd like to pull it up and see it, I think you would enjoy it.
You'd enjoy hearing John and also my approach and trying to do what we can do to reduce these drug prices. You're supposed to be working across the aisle to find out what are the best ideas. And unfortunately, these days, it's all tribal.
It's all, whose team are you on? What team are you a part of? Instead of deciding, all right, what's the best idea here? What is the best thing we can do to advance this country's economic and to advance this country's interest in so many other areas?
Host
Now, I do want to mention that Joe Biden, former President Joe Biden, is back in the news with his wife, Jill Biden's memoir out. And it makes me think of something that you have written about, how President Biden was there for you during a terrible time in your life. And it got me to thinking of that when you mentioned Theodore Roosevelt and the tragedies that he was trying to escape from and come into North Dakota to get some healing from it.
Can you share that story with us for those that don't know it?
Dorgan
Sure, but let me just say, I wish Joe had not decided to run a couple of years ago, but he did decide, and so, but I wish he had not because I thought he was going to be a kind of a transfer and that he'd be there four years with a great record. And he did have a great record, but at any rate, Joe's a friend. And let me tell you this short story.
Joe lost his wife and I think daughter in a car accident. And he's been through a lot of tragedy. And so my 23-year-old daughter, Shelly, died during heart surgery. Supposed to be very routine and it wasn't. And I guess no heart surgery is, but we spent days and days and days in intensive care and my daughter didn't make it and she died.
And I was sitting in the cloakroom one night -- later, maybe two weeks after Shelly died -- and I was kind of over in the corner by myself just sort of staring at the wall. I was trying to figure out, “How do I get through this?” I mean, it's just, it was horrible. And someone tapped on my arm and I turned around and it was Joe.
And Joe said to me very quietly, he said, “I know what you're thinking. I know what you're going through because I've been through that.” And he said, you know, just always understand as you move forward, there's a purpose and you'll get through this, Byron.
And I've never forgotten that moment just because it just made all the difference in the world to me to have somebody come up to me who's been through that. And so that's my story about Joe. I like Joe a lot, but again, I wish he had not said that he wanted to run for presidency for another term at age 82. That was not the right thing.
Host
Thank you for sharing that story, Senator Dorgan. Now, I feel like I should, while I have you, take an opportunity to ask you about the situation today in Cuba, which by most accounts is pretty dire as far as what it's like on the ground there. There's a warrant out for Raul Castro, I believe, for murder, basically.
Now, you were always for easing embargoes and opening up travel to Cuba. You sponsored bipartisan legislation to ease those restrictions. What are your thoughts on the island today?
Dorgan
Well, you know, I feel today like I did previously, the restrictions and the embargo has never worked. We've had it for 50-some or 60-some years now. You can travel, for example, to China, a communist country.
You can travel to Vietnam, a communist country. Well, Cuba's a communist country. We've had this long embargo, but the only single change in the embargo was an amendment I got passed that allowed us to ship some beans from North Dakota to Cuba, and Cuba had to pay cash, and the cash had to be through a European bank.
And so I think I've just got a little crack in the armor with respect to what we have done with respect to Cuba, but I have never felt that that approach has solved the problem. I would much prefer more people be able to visit Cuba. Now, I'm not a big fan of Fidel Castro or Raul Castro.
They're dictators. But I also know what is happening today is dramatically hurting the Cuban people. They don't have lights. They don't have energy. They don't have medical equipment. Fidel Castro never missed a meal because of this embargo.
But I'll tell you what, a whole lot of the Cuban people missed meals and missed a lot of other things as well.
Host
Well, bringing it back to your home state, Senator Dorgan, you were born in Dickinson, but as you mentioned, you grew up in tiny Regent, North Dakota. For those that are not familiar with your lovely town, what was it like growing up there? What do you miss about your hometown?
Dorgan
Well, you're right. I was born in Dickinson, North Dakota at St. Joseph's Hospital, and they took me back to Regent. I think it's a town of, it was about 280 people or so.
I've been back there, and it's a small town, a wonderful town. I think three churches and two bars. And two tiny little grocery stores. One was called the Co-op Store that everybody owned. And everybody in town knew everybody else. That's just a fact.
And as I told you, my dad was a horseman, and he was a terrific horseman. He loved horses more than most anything. Regent, North Dakota, like so many other North Dakotans, was a wonderful town.
The difficulty is this. Most kids go to high school, graduate from high school, and then they're gone. And they don't come back, because there aren't jobs in Regent.
And that's true of a lot of hometowns, small towns. But I come from a hometown I'm enormously proud of. I was always proud to tell people, here's where I'm from, Regent, North Dakota.
And it's just a great pleasure to be able to say, I graduated in a high school class of nine senior students. Always felt pretty good about having done that. And you're never far from the top five or the bottom five when you're in nine.
Host
That is true. That is very, very true. That's right.
Well, I'm sure I could tell you've taken the Regent, North Dakota values with you to Washington, Senator Dorgan. Former Senator Byron Dorgan is a New York Times best-selling author of five books, including “Take This Job and Ship It,” “How Corporate Greed and Braindead Politics Are Selling Out America,” and the eco-thrillers “Gridlock” and “Blowout.” And gosh, we haven't even had time to talk about those, Senator.
Maybe we'll take a rain check on that. But thank you so much for your time on this Primary Election day. And I think, as you mentioned earlier, it's kind of the most bipartisan sentiment in the world to say, go out and vote today, right?
Dorgan
Absolutely. Grab that steering wheel. That's what America's about, self-government. The people decide who's in charge, just the people.
Host
Senator Dorgan, it was a pleasure talking to you today. Thank you so much for your time.
Dorgan
Really good to be with you. Thanks so much. I appreciate it.